It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:16 pm

Scott1989 wrote:Yes, I agree with you.

This what the Buddha said in the Eightfold Path and what I should study:

"In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, yet unendearing and disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them."

"In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, but unbeneficial, yet endearing and agreeable to others, he does not say them."

"In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing and agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path

Except that I've already shown that your views are things the Buddha did NOT say, and fall into the category of "unbeneficial."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:33 pm

Our body is not our, because we can't make it younger
Our thoughts are nor ours, be cause we have to wait for it, we are awere only about yet-rised thought, like a moon, we see when it rises, we see when it shines, when he it enlight darkness, and we see when it go down. But is it our moon? I dont think so...
So if our toughts not belong to us, how we can say that our actions, interactivity, our kamma belong to us?

We can just be awere of it, contemplate it like it is, it's the all practice.

Sabbe dhamma anatta.

There is nobody, who can change somethink. Everethink is energy, 100% anatta, can one atom change somethink? So why we suffering about the choise? Why change? Everythink is perfect, and dwells ih harmony. Good and bad is somethink subjective, but there is no subject and no object. Everythink is mind that transfuse in his own rainbow sunshine. Buddha is shines, Buddha is pure, he shines throught his own purity, and rainbow of Samsara/Nibbana apears. This shine have no beginning, this purity have no begenning.
It's just like that, a rainbow of mind, completely free...

S.N. I.1-26 Source of light
"..
But the Buddha is the best of those that shine:
He is the light unsurpased."


1.Mind precedes all mental states.
Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought.
If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts
suffering follows him
like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
2. Mind precedes all mental states.
Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought.
If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts
happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.


Why peoples want to have a choise, when they all dwells in harmony?
They want to change something that is perfect on it's own

They dont want to suffer, but they want to change, they want to have a choise
But change is dukkha, choise is dukkha

It's not complicate to practice it. You have just to accept the think to be what they are, like a clean and smooth mirrow, don't change, don't judge, be compassionate of dhammas, be wise about dhammas. To judge is hate, and "5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased.This is a law eternal." Let all dhammas BE, it's a highest compassion, it's a highest wisdom, it's a state of freedom, unconditionate state.

So why are we suffering ?
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:54 pm

DAWN wrote:Everythink is perfect, and dwells ih harmony. Good and bad is somethink subjective, but there is no subject and no object. Everythink is mind that transfuse in his own rainbow sunshine. Buddha is shines, Buddha is pure, he shines throught his own purity, and rainbow of Samsara/Nibbana apears. This shine have no beginning, this purity have no begenning.
It's just like that, a rainbow of mind, completely free...

Compare:
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The way you tell it, there is no stress & suffering, everything being perfect rainbow sunshine and so forth.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:42 pm

Subjectively there is dukkha, objectively there is no dukkha.

Ud 8.2
It's hard to see the unaffected,
for the truth isn't easily seen.
Craving is pierced in one who knows;
For one who sees, there is nothing.


If there is suffering, so there is somebody who suffer. But all is anatta. Light that devoid of personality.
The one who contamplain the body and mind knows anatta of dhammas, for this one there is no more suffering, just a mouvement, just a kamma, just causes and quencequanses.
He knows that this body is just a "son" of those parents, he knows that this memories is not him self, it's not "me", but it's just some experiance of the dhamma, wich is this body, that this experiance dwell in body, that this experiance will die with this body. Like a rain drop that slides down on the window, it have not ego, it have not a choise of way that's slides down, it's dont care about it, it's not suffering about the dirt of window that it's washing, a it's just slides down from it's rise to it's diappearence, like all dhammas.

The only think that we can do, is do nothing. Find the refuge in our mind and dwell in it by contamplaing the mind shines until body's die.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eased.html
A Heart Released
The Teachings of Phra Ajaan Mun Bhuridatta Thera
§14. Activityless-ness is the end point of the world, beyond supposing and formulation.

saccanam caturo pada
khinasava jutimanto te loke parinibbuta


The four Noble Truths — suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path to its cessation — are activities in that each truth has an aspect that has to be done: Suffering has to be understood, its cause abandoned, its cessation made clear, and the path to its cessation developed. All of these are aspects that have to be done — and if they have to be done, they must be activities. So we can conclude that all four truths are activities. This is in keeping with the first verse quoted above, which speaks of the four truths as feet, stair treads, or steps that must be taken for the task to be finished. What follows is thus termed activityless-ness — like writing the numerals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0, then erasing 1-9, leaving just 0, and not writing anything more. What is left is read as 'zero,' but it doesn't have any value at all. You can't use it to add, subtract, multiply, or divide with any other numerals, yet at the same time you can't say that it doesn't exist, for there it is: 0 (zero).

This is like the discernment that knows all around, because it destroys the activity of supposing. In other words, it erases supposing completely and doesn't become involved with or hold on to any supposings at all. With the words 'erasing' or 'destroying' the activity of supposing, the question arises, 'When supposing is entirely destroyed, where will we stay?' The answer is that we will stay in a place that isn't supposed: right there with activityless-ness.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby SDC » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:11 pm

DAWN, is this just your intellectual understanding or have you seen all of this to be the case?
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Scott1989 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:16 pm

Actually, the Buddha said the same thing. Just read up on the basis, the Three Marks of Existence. He explains that conditioned things are empty of a self. How can you then talk about a self that makes choices?

And if you want something that makes more sense: how can an 'I' ever change?
Or: how can something you can be aware of (including thoughts, body, feelings, etc.) ever be you?
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:36 pm

This:
DAWN wrote:The only think that we can do, is do nothing.

is not saying the same thing as this:

Ajahn Mun wrote:The four Noble Truths — suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path to its cessation — are activities in that each truth has an aspect that has to be done: Suffering has to be understood, its cause abandoned, its cessation made clear, and the path to its cessation developed. All of these are aspects that have to be done — and if they have to be done, they must be activities. So we can conclude that all four truths are activities. This is in keeping with the first verse quoted above, which speaks of the four truths as feet, stair treads, or steps that must be taken for the task to be finished. What follows is thus termed activityless-ness


So I don't know why you have quoted Ajahn Mun, because he didn't teach to somehow instantly jump to activityless-ness. One has to develop the path, FIRST.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:41 pm

SDC wrote:DAWN, is this just your intellectual understanding or have you seen all of this to be the case?


Everybody see that. The Dhamma that can't be seen right there, can't be verified in this very moment is not a Dhamma.

SN 11.3
"If you can't recollect me, then you should recollect the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' For when you have recollected the Dhamma, whatever fear, terror, or horripilation there is will be abandoned.


Truth is Truth, you can see that all around you, we have just to be awere, to let the truth enter in openned door. If the door is closed, you will never meet the friend that you waiting for, you will be affraid of his knocking in your door, you will be affraid of life that knocking every day, affraid of The Dhamma. So by openning the door of our mind, by be awere and concentrate on dhammas that rises in our daily life, these dhamma will teach us The Dhamma.


No Ajahn Chah
24 It’s all Dhamma if we have mindfulness.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:59 pm

kirk5a wrote:This:
DAWN wrote:The only think that we can do, is do nothing.

is not saying the same thing as this:

Ajahn Mun wrote:The four Noble Truths — suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path to its cessation — are activities in that each truth has an aspect that has to be done: Suffering has to be understood, its cause abandoned, its cessation made clear, and the path to its cessation developed. All of these are aspects that have to be done — and if they have to be done, they must be activities. So we can conclude that all four truths are activities. This is in keeping with the first verse quoted above, which speaks of the four truths as feet, stair treads, or steps that must be taken for the task to be finished. What follows is thus termed activityless-ness


So I don't know why you have quoted Ajahn Mun, because he didn't teach to somehow instantly jump to activityless-ness. One has to develop the path, FIRST.


"One has to develop the path" - It's true that you say
"The path has to develop the one" - but I say the same

It's no the one who create the kamma
But it's the kamma who create the one

When the one dwell in kamma, he's suffering, but if he's not dwell in that, he is freed. It's The Path to.


Ud 1.10
"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."


PS: By "only that we can do, is do nothing" I mean that we should not interact with dhammas, just contemplaing it, contemplaing thoughts, speach and body. Kamma is interaction of dhammas, so the water will never calm if we smoothing it with our hand. It's just that.
The water will calm, the shine of our mind will enlight fundus without glares who scared us, will avaporate the water, and than we could step on the firm ground.
Calm the water, is the step that we must to do on The Path.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Viscid » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:11 pm

James the Giant wrote:
Scott1989 wrote:In that case I will stop posting these things on this forum.

No, don't stop, there was sense in what you wrote, I got what you were saying, it was just a bit mind-boggling, head-spacey, and overwhelming to read. Made me want to run away and dig a garden or something.


Bit of a tangent, but this reminds me of an incident I heard about in a YouTube video I watched recently:

Kornfield (1993), a psychologist and experienced meditation teacher, described what he termed a spiritual emergency that took place at an intensive meditation retreat he was leading.

An "overzealous young karate student" decided to meditate and not move for a full day and night. When he got up, he was filled with explosive energy. He strode into the middle of the dining hall filled with 100 silent retreatants and began to yell and practice his karate maneuvers at triple speed. Then he screamed, "When I look at each of you, I see behind you a whole trail of bodies showing your past lives." As an experienced meditation teacher, Kornfield recognized that the symptoms were related to the meditation practice rather than signs of a manic episode (for which they also meet all the diagnostic criteria except duration). The meditation community handled the situation by stopping his meditation practice and starting him jogging, ten miles in the morning and afternoon. His diet was changed to include red meat, which is thought to have a grounding effect. They got him to take frequent hot baths and showers, and to dig in the garden. One person was with him all the time. After three days, he was able to sleep again and was allowed to started meditating again, slowly and carefully.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:03 pm

Scott1989 wrote:Actually, the Buddha said the same thing. Just read up on the basis, the Three Marks of Existence. He explains that conditioned things are empty of a self. How can you then talk about a self that makes choices?

The Buddha said the same thing as what, exactly?

Regarding the three marks, he said that all dhammas are anatta - not me, not mine, not my self. Not just conditioned things (sankhara). "Sabbe dhamma anatta."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Caraka » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:31 pm

To the last two posters: It's true, there is a choice and there can be change, but wouldn't you say that the only true and free choice comes from a place of no-choice?


I would say it is choices to be made before one can reach no-choice.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:07 pm

DAWN wrote:When the one dwell in kamma, he's suffering, but if he's not dwell in that, he is freed. It's The Path to.

...

PS: By "only that we can do, is do nothing" I mean that we should not interact with dhammas, just contemplaing it, contemplaing thoughts, speach and body. Kamma is interaction of dhammas, so the water will never calm if we smoothing it with our hand. It's just that.
The water will calm, the shine of our mind will enlight fundus without glares who scared us, will avaporate the water, and than we could step on the firm ground.
Calm the water, is the step that we must to do on The Path.

Ok, but I would just point out that when you describe concentration and contemplation of dhammas, that right there IS kamma - action resulting from intention. Even the simple act of observation is still an act requiring intention. It's not a case of somehow jumping into a kamma-free zone and making that the path. That would be putting the result before the cause.

fundus without glares who scared us

What does that mean?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby SDC » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:44 pm

DAWN wrote:
SDC wrote:DAWN, is this just your intellectual understanding or have you seen all of this to be the case?


Everybody see that. The Dhamma that can't be seen right there, can't be verified in this very moment is not a Dhamma.

SN 11.3
"If you can't recollect me, then you should recollect the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' For when you have recollected the Dhamma, whatever fear, terror, or horripilation there is will be abandoned.

[/color]


I appreciate your quotes, but I do not interpret them they same way you are. Here the Buddha is saying to recollect the dhamma as a means to combat fear and terror.

Further Buddha says "inviting verification" and "realized by the wise"; no where does it say that it must or should be verified at that very moment. Of course that is a possibility but not a requirement. Overall in regards to seeing the dhamma here and now, I see that he is saying that with the proper development these things can be seen.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Magoo » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:09 am

Hi Scott,

In the very least you have generated a valuable and enjoyable discussion.

Can I ask if you (as a figure of speech) will choose to repond to my email or if it is inevitable?

The idea that everything is just inevitable does not seem valid (to me). Certainly much of what we experience in our day is uncontrolable, but I (again figure of speech) do have control of my actions and speech and intentions (with the help of mindfulness), demostrated by the fact that I am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee. If I wait for inevitabilty, I dont think I will ever have that coffee I am craving!

To me and in my humble opinion the concept of "no self" is being taken a bit too extreme here. I prefer the middle way.

With MeggaMetta
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:35 am

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote:When the one dwell in kamma, he's suffering, but if he's not dwell in that, he is freed. It's The Path to.

...

PS: By "only that we can do, is do nothing" I mean that we should not interact with dhammas, just contemplaing it, contemplaing thoughts, speach and body. Kamma is interaction of dhammas, so the water will never calm if we smoothing it with our hand. It's just that.
The water will calm, the shine of our mind will enlight fundus without glares who scared us, will avaporate the water, and than we could step on the firm ground.
Calm the water, is the step that we must to do on The Path.

Ok, but I would just point out that when you describe concentration and contemplation of dhammas, that right there IS kamma - action resulting from intention. Even the simple act of observation is still an act requiring intention. It's not a case of somehow jumping into a kamma-free zone and making that the path. That would be putting the result before the cause.

By observation, and contemplation I mean clear conciousness, lighteling conciousness. Be the one who knows. Counciousness it's not results of intention.

There is no cause to freedom. If The Liberation has causes it's will be conditioned, and condition is a jail.
Wr talks about 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0, that after 1-9 comes 0, but if we watch closer, we can understand that 1 is based on 0, he rises from 0, 2 is based on 0, he rises from 0, all numbers rises from 0. We steps on the path of 1-9 being alrady in 0, so The Path invates us just to meke the round, from 0 to 0, find ourselves by "other side".
Everethink have this own axis. This axis is the 0 for numbers, is the senter for a circle, is the emptyness for dhammas, is The Buddha for conciousness.

kirk5a wrote:
fundus without glares who scared us

What does that mean?

When the light of The Buddha passes through the waves of our mind, we observe the glares of our thoughts. When the water is smooth, there is no glares who apears in our mind, anyway we knows the nature of glares and we dont suffer obout it anymore.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:43 am

SDC wrote:
DAWN wrote:
SDC wrote:DAWN, is this just your intellectual understanding or have you seen all of this to be the case?


Everybody see that. The Dhamma that can't be seen right there, can't be verified in this very moment is not a Dhamma.

SN 11.3
"If you can't recollect me, then you should recollect the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' For when you have recollected the Dhamma, whatever fear, terror, or horripilation there is will be abandoned.

[/color]


I appreciate your quotes, but I do not interpret them they same way you are. Here the Buddha is saying to recollect the dhamma as a means to combat fear and terror.

Further Buddha says "inviting verification" and "realized by the wise"; no where does it say that it must or should be verified at that very moment. Of course that is a possibility but not a requirement. Overall in regards to seeing the dhamma here and now, I see that he is saying that with the proper development these things can be seen.


You are reson. It's true that you say.
But I've quoted this to show the qualities of The Dhamma. That is can "be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent". If we direct our mind to The Dhamma, like a sailor who direct his boat to the ground, we will see it in all dhammas, and they will teach us direcltly.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby SDC » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:46 am

DAWN wrote:You are reson. It's true that you say.
But I've quoted this to show the qualities of The Dhamma. That is can "be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent". If we direct our mind to The Dhamma, like a sailor who direct his boat to the ground, we will see it in all dhammas, and they will teach us direcltly.


I agree. Perhaps I misunderstood your other post.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:15 am

DAWN wrote:There is no cause to freedom. If The Liberation has causes it's will be conditioned, and condition is a jail.

Not true.
"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:46 am

Magoo wrote: do have control of my actions and speech and intentions (with the help of mindfulness), demostrated by the fact that I am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee. If I wait for inevitabilty, I dont think I will ever have that coffee I am craving!


Your cofee is inevitable, why? Beacause there are coktail of reasons.

There is no fenomena, no dhamma that have not any reason, all is conditioned by reasons that have effect. If somethink rises withour reason - it's chaos
If you have a choice of your thoughts, why do you don't think only genious thoughts? Why do you must a waiting for one idea? You dont create it, you wait it, you wait a reasons to see this idea rises in your mind... like a moon. I can see the moon, it's shines et show me the way, I can just take the way that the moon enlight, but if the moon is mine? I dont think so. So where is the choice?

Suffering rises when we cant control somethink, when ego try to apropriate the things that he don't have, but he have nothink, so identifying with ego makes rise a suffering. Leting all go on, it's freedom.

When there is ego, there is only dukkha, there is only Samsara
When there is no ego, there is no dukkha, there is Nibbana

It's not the ego who create dhammas
But it's dhammas who create the ego
Ego is the point of our mind where is focusing the experiance of body life
Do the past exist? No
Do the ego exist right now? No
So who makes a choice?

When the one is identifying with the experiance of his body, he devides the world on "me" and "not-me", so to find some security and stability, ego tries to apropriate the things, to make "not-me" - "me", is like a sponge, it's trying to absorbe the water and suffering on this weigh, cant move on The Path.
But when there is no ego, when there is no choice, when there is just accepting of things, when there is no bad or good, just phenomenas who rises and disappears, the mind is like a lotus leaf, the rain's drop slides down, Mara have not any more acces to it...

It's difficult to understand and accept, but is the way that all dhammas are.

PS: Middleway it's just about very luxioury and very ascetic life who don't lead to lieration of suffering. With Mara there is no middle way. Perharps in Mahayana.
If someone likes to have a choice, he likes suffer to.
Mara is hidden there where is suffering. So we have to distroy suffering, distroy ourselves, our ego. It's sounds brutal, but we have no more the time to esitate.

With Metta.
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