It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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kirk5a
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by kirk5a »

Scott1989 wrote:Actually, the Buddha said the same thing. Just read up on the basis, the Three Marks of Existence. He explains that conditioned things are empty of a self. How can you then talk about a self that makes choices?
The Buddha said the same thing as what, exactly?

Regarding the three marks, he said that all dhammas are anatta - not me, not mine, not my self. Not just conditioned things (sankhara). "Sabbe dhamma anatta."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Caraka
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by Caraka »

To the last two posters: It's true, there is a choice and there can be change, but wouldn't you say that the only true and free choice comes from a place of no-choice?
I would say it is choices to be made before one can reach no-choice.
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kirk5a
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by kirk5a »

DAWN wrote: When the one dwell in kamma, he's suffering, but if he's not dwell in that, he is freed. It's The Path to.

...

PS: By "only that we can do, is do nothing" I mean that we should not interact with dhammas, just contemplaing it, contemplaing thoughts, speach and body. Kamma is interaction of dhammas, so the water will never calm if we smoothing it with our hand. It's just that.
The water will calm, the shine of our mind will enlight fundus without glares who scared us, will avaporate the water, and than we could step on the firm ground.
Calm the water, is the step that we must to do on The Path.
Ok, but I would just point out that when you describe concentration and contemplation of dhammas, that right there IS kamma - action resulting from intention. Even the simple act of observation is still an act requiring intention. It's not a case of somehow jumping into a kamma-free zone and making that the path. That would be putting the result before the cause.
fundus without glares who scared us
What does that mean?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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SDC
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by SDC »

DAWN wrote:
SDC wrote:DAWN, is this just your intellectual understanding or have you seen all of this to be the case?
Everybody see that. The Dhamma that can't be seen right there, can't be verified in this very moment is not a Dhamma.

SN 11.3
"If you can't recollect me, then you should recollect the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' For when you have recollected the Dhamma, whatever fear, terror, or horripilation there is will be abandoned.

[/color]
I appreciate your quotes, but I do not interpret them they same way you are. Here the Buddha is saying to recollect the dhamma as a means to combat fear and terror.

Further Buddha says "inviting verification" and "realized by the wise"; no where does it say that it must or should be verified at that very moment. Of course that is a possibility but not a requirement. Overall in regards to seeing the dhamma here and now, I see that he is saying that with the proper development these things can be seen.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Magoo
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by Magoo »

Hi Scott,

In the very least you have generated a valuable and enjoyable discussion.

Can I ask if you (as a figure of speech) will choose to repond to my email or if it is inevitable?

The idea that everything is just inevitable does not seem valid (to me). Certainly much of what we experience in our day is uncontrolable, but I (again figure of speech) do have control of my actions and speech and intentions (with the help of mindfulness), demostrated by the fact that I am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee. If I wait for inevitabilty, I dont think I will ever have that coffee I am craving!

To me and in my humble opinion the concept of "no self" is being taken a bit too extreme here. I prefer the middle way.

With MeggaMetta
Eamonn
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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN »

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote: When the one dwell in kamma, he's suffering, but if he's not dwell in that, he is freed. It's The Path to.

...

PS: By "only that we can do, is do nothing" I mean that we should not interact with dhammas, just contemplaing it, contemplaing thoughts, speach and body. Kamma is interaction of dhammas, so the water will never calm if we smoothing it with our hand. It's just that.
The water will calm, the shine of our mind will enlight fundus without glares who scared us, will avaporate the water, and than we could step on the firm ground.
Calm the water, is the step that we must to do on The Path.
Ok, but I would just point out that when you describe concentration and contemplation of dhammas, that right there IS kamma - action resulting from intention. Even the simple act of observation is still an act requiring intention. It's not a case of somehow jumping into a kamma-free zone and making that the path. That would be putting the result before the cause.
By observation, and contemplation I mean clear conciousness, lighteling conciousness. Be the one who knows. Counciousness it's not results of intention.

There is no cause to freedom. If The Liberation has causes it's will be conditioned, and condition is a jail.
Wr talks about 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0, that after 1-9 comes 0, but if we watch closer, we can understand that 1 is based on 0, he rises from 0, 2 is based on 0, he rises from 0, all numbers rises from 0. We steps on the path of 1-9 being alrady in 0, so The Path invates us just to meke the round, from 0 to 0, find ourselves by "other side".
Everethink have this own axis. This axis is the 0 for numbers, is the senter for a circle, is the emptyness for dhammas, is The Buddha for conciousness.
kirk5a wrote:
fundus without glares who scared us
What does that mean?
When the light of The Buddha passes through the waves of our mind, we observe the glares of our thoughts. When the water is smooth, there is no glares who apears in our mind, anyway we knows the nature of glares and we dont suffer obout it anymore.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN »

SDC wrote:
DAWN wrote:
SDC wrote:DAWN, is this just your intellectual understanding or have you seen all of this to be the case?
Everybody see that. The Dhamma that can't be seen right there, can't be verified in this very moment is not a Dhamma.

SN 11.3
"If you can't recollect me, then you should recollect the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.' For when you have recollected the Dhamma, whatever fear, terror, or horripilation there is will be abandoned.

[/color]
I appreciate your quotes, but I do not interpret them they same way you are. Here the Buddha is saying to recollect the dhamma as a means to combat fear and terror.

Further Buddha says "inviting verification" and "realized by the wise"; no where does it say that it must or should be verified at that very moment. Of course that is a possibility but not a requirement. Overall in regards to seeing the dhamma here and now, I see that he is saying that with the proper development these things can be seen.
You are reson. It's true that you say.
But I've quoted this to show the qualities of The Dhamma. That is can "be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent". If we direct our mind to The Dhamma, like a sailor who direct his boat to the ground, we will see it in all dhammas, and they will teach us direcltly.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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SDC
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by SDC »

DAWN wrote:You are reson. It's true that you say.
But I've quoted this to show the qualities of The Dhamma. That is can "be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent". If we direct our mind to The Dhamma, like a sailor who direct his boat to the ground, we will see it in all dhammas, and they will teach us direcltly.
I agree. Perhaps I misunderstood your other post.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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kirk5a
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by kirk5a »

DAWN wrote:There is no cause to freedom. If The Liberation has causes it's will be conditioned, and condition is a jail.
Not true.
"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN »

Magoo wrote: do have control of my actions and speech and intentions (with the help of mindfulness), demostrated by the fact that I am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee. If I wait for inevitabilty, I dont think I will ever have that coffee I am craving!
Your cofee is inevitable, why? Beacause there are coktail of reasons.

There is no fenomena, no dhamma that have not any reason, all is conditioned by reasons that have effect. If somethink rises withour reason - it's chaos
If you have a choice of your thoughts, why do you don't think only genious thoughts? Why do you must a waiting for one idea? You dont create it, you wait it, you wait a reasons to see this idea rises in your mind... like a moon. I can see the moon, it's shines et show me the way, I can just take the way that the moon enlight, but if the moon is mine? I dont think so. So where is the choice?

Suffering rises when we cant control somethink, when ego try to apropriate the things that he don't have, but he have nothink, so identifying with ego makes rise a suffering. Leting all go on, it's freedom.

When there is ego, there is only dukkha, there is only Samsara
When there is no ego, there is no dukkha, there is Nibbana

It's not the ego who create dhammas
But it's dhammas who create the ego
Ego is the point of our mind where is focusing the experiance of body life
Do the past exist? No
Do the ego exist right now? No
So who makes a choice?

When the one is identifying with the experiance of his body, he devides the world on "me" and "not-me", so to find some security and stability, ego tries to apropriate the things, to make "not-me" - "me", is like a sponge, it's trying to absorbe the water and suffering on this weigh, cant move on The Path.
But when there is no ego, when there is no choice, when there is just accepting of things, when there is no bad or good, just phenomenas who rises and disappears, the mind is like a lotus leaf, the rain's drop slides down, Mara have not any more acces to it...

It's difficult to understand and accept, but is the way that all dhammas are.

PS: Middleway it's just about very luxioury and very ascetic life who don't lead to lieration of suffering. With Mara there is no middle way. Perharps in Mahayana.
If someone likes to have a choice, he likes suffer to.
Mara is hidden there where is suffering. So we have to distroy suffering, distroy ourselves, our ego. It's sounds brutal, but we have no more the time to esitate.

With Metta.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN »

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote:There is no cause to freedom. If The Liberation has causes it's will be conditioned, and condition is a jail.
Not true.
"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Supporting conditions - they support Emantipation, they dont create it.
Supporting conditions are writen in Vinaya.

Perharps peoples thinks that by saing that "there is no choice" we can say that "we dont have a care about what is the way we live", it's not like this.
Because this words can be saing ony by ego, but when you see this Dhamma of anatta, and "no choice" you have no more ego, is you understand that intelectualy, you wahe to develop that by awereness and concentration, until you will find, reveal the refuge, after that you have just to support it by conditions, dwell in it, beyond thoughts, beyond suffering, beyond Mara, beyond the fenomenal wolrd. You have to support it until your bodies die.

When in subway you watching trough window, there is many lightelings, and you are charmed by this mouvement since countless stops, you cant exit, you dont know how. But if you close your eyes, and tryes to feeling a chair, you will find it. This chair is alway be there, but we was to much charmed by lightelings of subway, since all this time we identifying with it, we think that we create it, we think that we have a choice of it, but all these lightelings still mouve on these own, and we suffering. So, the one who practice well, will find a chair, he will exit the next stop. Until he dont feel the chair, and dont know how to exit, he have to stick off his face from window, and be awere of mouvement of lightelings... Doing this way he will find a chair under his booty.

If some one who jump with a parachute is panic, he will die, or be tangled in the parachute and die after that. But if he is calm, and see that earth comes closer and closer, he will dont spend his precious time on suffering about it, he will try to find a parachute ring, and will never drop it again.
There is no conditions to parachute or subway chair, there is conditions to find it and dont loose it. To find it we have to be awere about dhammas in our mind and our live, dont be charmed by it, dont spend our time on suffering about that, spend our time to make a good choice and after suffering one more time because fruit of this choice brings no happyness etc etc... We have to find a chair, find a parachute, and dont loose it. It's all.
When the chair will be found, the one have no care anymore about lightelings, he let them be, he keep his mind awere about the next stop for exit.
When the parachute will be found, the one have no care about the falling down, he just keep his mind awere about the ground that comes closer

I'am sorry, there is to many words.

With Metta.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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kirk5a
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by kirk5a »

DAWN wrote:
Magoo wrote: do have control of my actions and speech and intentions (with the help of mindfulness), demostrated by the fact that I am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee. If I wait for inevitabilty, I dont think I will ever have that coffee I am craving!
Your cofee is inevitable, why? Beacause there are coktail of reasons.
No, it is not inevitable. But why don't you show us where the Buddha said that whether one acts upon craving, or not, is inevitable.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN »

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote:
Magoo wrote: do have control of my actions and speech and intentions (with the help of mindfulness), demostrated by the fact that I am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee. If I wait for inevitabilty, I dont think I will ever have that coffee I am craving!
Your cofee is inevitable, why? Beacause there are coktail of reasons.
No, it is not inevitable. But why don't you show us where the Buddha said that whether one acts upon craving, or not, is inevitable.
If a cofee will be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable
If a cofee will not be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable.

I dont know if he said that, but i know that all fenomenas are conditioned by them selves, and i know thant thought is out of control, I cant crontrol it, but i can contemplain it, be awere of it, be free of it. And if even my thoughts is out of control, so how I can do some kind of choice?
Who that "I" who want to control something that is out of control, completely autonomous, free, and eternal?
All fenomenas, all dhammas just rises, dwells and diappears, it' all. How can we control somethink that rises, dwells and disappears?

Even this post is anatta, there is nobody who write it or react on it, there is just causes and consequences, i dont participate on writing that, it's just written by causes and consequances

If you think that is heretical, that is no conform to that Buddha teach us, that is confuses you, that is dont lead to Liberation, so drop this off, and i pray you to accept my apologyse, because i have pure motivation.

With Metta.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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kirk5a
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by kirk5a »

DAWN wrote: If a cofee will be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable
If a cofee will not be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable.
So lets say someone commits a crime and claims "it was inevitable, I can't control it, phenomena are conditioned by themselves." How do you respond?
I dont know if he said that, but i know that all fenomenas are conditioned by them selves, and i know thant thought is out of control, I cant crontrol it, but i can contemplain it, be awere of it, be free of it. And if even my thoughts is out of control, so how I can do some kind of choice?
Thought is out of control for you. But the suttas describe the possibility of something else.
"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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DAWN
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Post by DAWN »

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote: If a cofee will be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable
If a cofee will not be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable.
So lets say someone commits a crime and claims "it was inevitable, I can't control it, phenomena are conditioned by themselves." How do you respond?
I respond that there is causes and consequences.
Samsara/Nibbana is the most fair that can exist, like smooth clean mirrow. But there is a beings who are not agree with these reflect, they wants to chage it.
kirk5a wrote:
I dont know if he said that, but i know that all fenomenas are conditioned by them selves, and i know thant thought is out of control, I cant crontrol it, but i can contemplain it, be awere of it, be free of it. And if even my thoughts is out of control, so how I can do some kind of choice?
Thought is out of control for you. But the suttas describe the possibility of something else.
"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful.

When the thought is arise, Buddha propose to :

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress."

And doing that with arisen thought, he is called "a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress."

PS One thought is conditioned, something that is conditioned is not free, somethink that is not free, can't have a choice. If we are free to think somethink, so why we can't think like The Buddha? We cant do that, be cause we have no necessery conditions to have the same thoughts.

We can direct the boat, we cant choice the waves that our boat will meet. But even choice of direction is conditioned by our experiance
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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