It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:41 pm

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote:There is no cause to freedom. If The Liberation has causes it's will be conditioned, and condition is a jail.

Not true.
"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html


Supporting conditions - they support Emantipation, they dont create it.
Supporting conditions are writen in Vinaya.

Perharps peoples thinks that by saing that "there is no choice" we can say that "we dont have a care about what is the way we live", it's not like this.
Because this words can be saing ony by ego, but when you see this Dhamma of anatta, and "no choice" you have no more ego, is you understand that intelectualy, you wahe to develop that by awereness and concentration, until you will find, reveal the refuge, after that you have just to support it by conditions, dwell in it, beyond thoughts, beyond suffering, beyond Mara, beyond the fenomenal wolrd. You have to support it until your bodies die.

When in subway you watching trough window, there is many lightelings, and you are charmed by this mouvement since countless stops, you cant exit, you dont know how. But if you close your eyes, and tryes to feeling a chair, you will find it. This chair is alway be there, but we was to much charmed by lightelings of subway, since all this time we identifying with it, we think that we create it, we think that we have a choice of it, but all these lightelings still mouve on these own, and we suffering. So, the one who practice well, will find a chair, he will exit the next stop. Until he dont feel the chair, and dont know how to exit, he have to stick off his face from window, and be awere of mouvement of lightelings... Doing this way he will find a chair under his booty.

If some one who jump with a parachute is panic, he will die, or be tangled in the parachute and die after that. But if he is calm, and see that earth comes closer and closer, he will dont spend his precious time on suffering about it, he will try to find a parachute ring, and will never drop it again.
There is no conditions to parachute or subway chair, there is conditions to find it and dont loose it. To find it we have to be awere about dhammas in our mind and our live, dont be charmed by it, dont spend our time on suffering about that, spend our time to make a good choice and after suffering one more time because fruit of this choice brings no happyness etc etc... We have to find a chair, find a parachute, and dont loose it. It's all.
When the chair will be found, the one have no care anymore about lightelings, he let them be, he keep his mind awere about the next stop for exit.
When the parachute will be found, the one have no care about the falling down, he just keep his mind awere about the ground that comes closer

I'am sorry, there is to many words.

With Metta.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:02 pm

DAWN wrote:
Magoo wrote: do have control of my actions and speech and intentions (with the help of mindfulness), demostrated by the fact that I am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee. If I wait for inevitabilty, I dont think I will ever have that coffee I am craving!


Your cofee is inevitable, why? Beacause there are coktail of reasons.

No, it is not inevitable. But why don't you show us where the Buddha said that whether one acts upon craving, or not, is inevitable.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:43 pm

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote:
Magoo wrote: do have control of my actions and speech and intentions (with the help of mindfulness), demostrated by the fact that I am going to make myself a nice cup of coffee. If I wait for inevitabilty, I dont think I will ever have that coffee I am craving!


Your cofee is inevitable, why? Beacause there are coktail of reasons.

No, it is not inevitable. But why don't you show us where the Buddha said that whether one acts upon craving, or not, is inevitable.


If a cofee will be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable
If a cofee will not be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable.

I dont know if he said that, but i know that all fenomenas are conditioned by them selves, and i know thant thought is out of control, I cant crontrol it, but i can contemplain it, be awere of it, be free of it. And if even my thoughts is out of control, so how I can do some kind of choice?
Who that "I" who want to control something that is out of control, completely autonomous, free, and eternal?
All fenomenas, all dhammas just rises, dwells and diappears, it' all. How can we control somethink that rises, dwells and disappears?

Even this post is anatta, there is nobody who write it or react on it, there is just causes and consequences, i dont participate on writing that, it's just written by causes and consequances

If you think that is heretical, that is no conform to that Buddha teach us, that is confuses you, that is dont lead to Liberation, so drop this off, and i pray you to accept my apologyse, because i have pure motivation.

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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:33 pm

DAWN wrote:If a cofee will be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable
If a cofee will not be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable.

So lets say someone commits a crime and claims "it was inevitable, I can't control it, phenomena are conditioned by themselves." How do you respond?

I dont know if he said that, but i know that all fenomenas are conditioned by them selves, and i know thant thought is out of control, I cant crontrol it, but i can contemplain it, be awere of it, be free of it. And if even my thoughts is out of control, so how I can do some kind of choice?

Thought is out of control for you. But the suttas describe the possibility of something else.
"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:31 pm

kirk5a wrote:
DAWN wrote:If a cofee will be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable
If a cofee will not be done - there is more reasons to it, so it's inevitable.

So lets say someone commits a crime and claims "it was inevitable, I can't control it, phenomena are conditioned by themselves." How do you respond?

I respond that there is causes and consequences.
Samsara/Nibbana is the most fair that can exist, like smooth clean mirrow. But there is a beings who are not agree with these reflect, they wants to chage it.

kirk5a wrote:
I dont know if he said that, but i know that all fenomenas are conditioned by them selves, and i know thant thought is out of control, I cant crontrol it, but i can contemplain it, be awere of it, be free of it. And if even my thoughts is out of control, so how I can do some kind of choice?

Thought is out of control for you. But the suttas describe the possibility of something else.
"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful.

When the thought is arise, Buddha propose to :

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress."

And doing that with arisen thought, he is called "a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress."

PS One thought is conditioned, something that is conditioned is not free, somethink that is not free, can't have a choice. If we are free to think somethink, so why we can't think like The Buddha? We cant do that, be cause we have no necessery conditions to have the same thoughts.

We can direct the boat, we cant choice the waves that our boat will meet. But even choice of direction is conditioned by our experiance
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Scott1989 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:47 pm

Maybe you should drop it, Dawn. I agree with you, of course, but I am starting to realize what the problem is with saying to someone else that everything is inevitable.

When you let a computer make a complicated calculation, the moment you push the button, the answer is inevitable for you, but not for the computer! So telling yourself that everything is inevitable is perfectly fine when you see this is true, because if there is no self there is no way not to say that anyway, so you might as well let go. There is nothing you can do!

The problem lies in telling someone else that there is nothing they can do (in other words: your computer telling another computer that there is nothing it can do and thus influencing the calculation). This might lead them to believe that they might as well commit crimes, smoke and drink.

In other words, telling yourself there is nothing you can do is perfectly fine when you have seen it to be true yourself. Telling someone else that there is nothing they can do and asking them to accept this by faith is problematic. I am starting to see why 'it is inevitable' is not a good way of teaching others (but a great way of teaching yourself!).
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby kirk5a » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:59 pm

Scott1989 wrote:The problem lies in telling someone else that there is nothing they can do (in other words: your computer telling another computer that there is nothing it can do and thus influencing the calculation). This might lead them to believe that they might as well commit crimes, smoke and drink.

That's step in the right direction, because now you're starting to see the consequences of wrong views.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby James the Giant » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:52 pm

Scott1989 wrote:The problem lies in telling someone else that there is nothing they can do (in other words: your computer telling another computer that there is nothing it can do and thus influencing the calculation). This might lead them to believe that they might as well commit crimes, smoke and drink.

But I thought you were telling us it was all inevitable anyway, so telling or not telling, crime or not crime, inevitable! inevitable!
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby SamKR » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:25 am

Scott1989 wrote:When you start to see that everything is inevitable you will automatically be led to the eightfold path. When you start to practice the eightfold path you will automatically be led to see that everything is inevitable.


Scott,

I like the essence of your post, but I am not sure about two things you mentioned. The first is the word "inevitable"; it sounds like fatalism which the Buddha denied. I think "out of 'my' control" could be a better choice.
Second, I am not sure how seeing everything inevitable will automatically lead to the eightfold path. Could you explain it a bit more.

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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:40 am

Scott1989 wrote:Maybe you should drop it, Dawn. I agree with you, of course, but I am starting to realize what the problem is with saying to someone else that everything is inevitable.

When you let a computer make a complicated calculation, the moment you push the button, the answer is inevitable for you, but not for the computer! So telling yourself that everything is inevitable is perfectly fine when you see this is true, because if there is no self there is no way not to say that anyway, so you might as well let go. There is nothing you can do!

The problem lies in telling someone else that there is nothing they can do (in other words: your computer telling another computer that there is nothing it can do and thus influencing the calculation). This might lead them to believe that they might as well commit crimes, smoke and drink.

In other words, telling yourself there is nothing you can do is perfectly fine when you have seen it to be true yourself. Telling someone else that there is nothing they can do and asking them to accept this by faith is problematic. I am starting to see why 'it is inevitable' is not a good way of teaching others (but a great way of teaching yourself!).


It's true that we cant show this, and if we would like to show that, it will be not full and deep vision, so talking about that create an intelectual comprehention but not direct knowlege, so a denger of an anetical conduct basend on total nihilism can arise in some one who is listening and take that for somethink true without ferify by himself directly. There is no nihilism, and there is no someone who tent to approve his anethical conduct with such visions. So for some one who see that dhammas rises, dwells and desapears by their own, there is no nihilistic-egoistic behavior, there is dhamma behavior. Why? Because this knowlege create a compassion about beings who identify them selvs with dhammas, who suffering about dhammas, so he act in accordance with that knowlege who takes the place of the cause of that altruistic behavior...
Causes and consquances, it's all.

Anyway,
Before you dont see it, dont listen it
Until you saw it, dont tell it

Perharps i misunderstand somethink, or dont have a right view, i dont care about it, i feel freedom about dhammas, and sometimes i understand why some beings refuse to teach. There is no one who can save anybody, beings should be saved by them selves.
"One good deciple is not like a bowl that we must fill, but like a torch that we must inflame."

With Metta
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:22 am

SamKR wrote:
Scott1989 wrote:When you start to see that everything is inevitable you will automatically be led to the eightfold path. When you start to practice the eightfold path you will automatically be led to see that everything is inevitable.


Scott,

I like the essence of your post, but I am not sure about two things you mentioned. The first is the word "inevitable"; it sounds like fatalism which the Buddha denied. I think "out of 'my' control" could be a better choice.

You have a reason, "out of 'my' control" it's better for me to

SamKR wrote:Second, I am not sure how seeing everything inevitable will automatically lead to the eightfold path. Could you explain it a bit more.

SamKR

Right view
Right intention
Right speech
Right action
Right livelihood
Right effort
Right mindfulness
Right concentration

There is the word 'right' who means 'in conformity with'. In conformity with dhammas and the law that lead them, The Dhamma.
So we can read that :
Right view is the view in conformity with Dhamma, the law of dhammas, all fenomena is dhamma, sabbe dhamma anatta, and all dhammas are leaded by causes that becomes consequances that becomes causes and that becomes consequances... etc
All cognizable fenomena is dhamma that that follows his stream, Buddha is 'The One who knows', the one who is awere of all fenomenas, who is beyound all fenomenas.

Seeing that intelectualy dont leads directly to Eightfold Path, but knowing dirrectly leads to Eightfold Path. Thats why we practice, to clarify our view, to see deeply into the water, to understand that reflections on the lake bottom is not self, that they depends on wind, and that it's not stable, it's not a refuge, but the firm ground on wich this reflections take place is refuge. By seeing the ground we can reach it by simplyfing our life, by openning the door of our mind, and letting the water escape, than we can stand on the firm ground.
Of corse we can imagine that reflections depend on us, it's certanly true, because we can intrepret it, but we cant control it. Interpretation depends on our mind their mouvement depends on it self. Some beings interpret it like devas, others like asura, hell being or humains, everybody interpret these reflections in conformity with his ego, be cause the mind identifying with it, he watch trough the experiance of dhamma, wich is the body, and create the illusion of ego, tend to apropriate the dhammas, but he can't control it, so he suffering... suffering about fenomena of their life, suffering about he fenomenas of their body, suffering about the fenomenas in their mind... etc etc
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:40 am

If there is control, why there is dukkha?
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Magoo » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:59 am

DAWN wrote:If there is control, why there is dukkha?


Because of desire, aversion and DELUSION which have created bad habits, in my case over a long period of time. Changing my views and habits will not happen like the flick of a switch, it will take time and effort.

Dont get me wrong here, I understand I dont have control over all my thoughts, but with right Mindfulness, I can gain some control and also control which thoughts I act on and which thoughts I dont. Plus equally important, the skill of my actions is enhanced.

With Metta
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Scott1989 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:33 am

SamKR, you are right. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, it would have been better for me to say: everything that happened now was inevitable, but the future is not yet determined. Like you said, our minds and bodies still change and influence each other, but there is no 'I' in this process, so for this I it is inevitable.

As for your second question, the eightfold path is what led me to this realization. When you try to figure out every way for doing the right thing, you will gradually learn that doing the right thing comes naturally when you let go of trying to control (which always goes together with craving).

For instance, if we are fighting laziness, we might think we are doing the right thing, but in reality we are acting and choosing like a person who is lazy and who is fighting laziness, thus strengthening the belief that we are lazy and that we have to fight hard to get rid of it and thus we become this person again and again. When you start to see this, you will be led to understand what it means to truly let go.

I imagine it works the other way around too. If you start to see that there is no control for this 'I', you will recognize the moments that you are not doing the right thing and recognize these moments as your mind trying to control the situation. True surrender and doing the right thing go hand in hand.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby unspoken » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:48 am

Scott,
I think I understand what you are thinking. Let me write an example and mark me wrong if its not accordance to your realization and understanding. For example, If you are a student, you think of studying for finals. Any why you think of studying for finals? Because by identifying that you need to study for finals, you actually admit to yourself that the finals is here. And it is inevitable. Is that right? Like a person who says who do not want to sleep in the afternoon, because do not want himself to become lazy, by identifying that you need to stop becoming lazy, you actually subconsciously know or identify yourself is a lazy person, and this strengthen that idea of you are lazy. Is that true?

If you really think that way, I would like to ask in a humble manner. If a person knows himself is lazy, trying hard to solve this problem, but not just observing his identification of self, isnt it a good thing?

If by telling myself theres nothing I can do myself because there is no "I" that exist, there is only natural process taking place, going with the flow and automatically realize nibbana. But what if everything in the world, allowing it to take place, then we will always be miserable but no happy. Because the world is suffering. However if Gautama did not choose to live happy, not to choose to practice meditation, alms food, not choose to give up his family, not to choose to attain the ultimate truth, how can he enlighten? Same way goes to if we are just waiting and let natural selection take over, we keep reincarnate up till a point when we suddenly magically realize truth in an instant, not quite possible I say.

I cant judge people on how they think or interpret things because me myself is just a secular Buddhist. However, what I think, by not identifying my existence, therefore I will not appear in this round of samsara, is never the answer. Because even if i identify or not identifying myself, I am still here being miserable. I dont just exist here straight away simply because of the thought appears to me that I live in a miserable life. I wont be happy instantly if I ignore this thoughts of me living in this miserable life because there are things undone. this thought of I living in a miserable life was not mine in the first place, it comes it goes. Its by the world I live in. And the world where people suffer.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:30 pm

The Buddha never say : I think, I thought, i'am thinking
The Buddha always say : It arise in me, It comes to me

Volitional formations arise from ignorance
When there is no ignorance, volitional formations are distroyed

What is the ground on that volational formations grows up? Volitional formation grows up on the ground of choice illusion
Last edited by DAWN on Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Scott1989 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:02 pm

Unspoken, the point of this realization is to let go of everything. Even choosing not to study or not to change should be let go of. Every conscious choice of doing or not doing comes from craving and keeps karma alive.

Choosing to think "I shouldn't think this way" or "it's all inevitable anyway" is also a form of clinging to thoughts. The point is to let go of all of it and realize that the only thing to do is to be awake ... to be aware of being aware in every single moment ... consciously aware. Right action follows from that. Everything else comes from misunderstanding of "who or what am I and what can I actually do" which makes us forget that we are aware.

But, I have already admitted that "it is all inevitable" might not be a good method for teaching someone who does not see what is meant by this.
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby equilibrium » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:49 pm

This realization you have of no self.....what level of attainment is it?
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby Magoo » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:33 pm

Hi Scott,

Can I be a devils advocate and ask a question please?

If you have to start work at 5.00am in the morning, how do you make sure that you are there at 5.00am? What is the process that you would go through? :thinking:

:namaste:
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Re: It is inevitable ... My thoughts on spiritual practice.

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:42 am

Indeed, it's approuved by The Buddha him self :

SN 12.31
Bhutamidam Sutta: This Has Come Into Being ('What has come to be' by Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"Do you see, Sariputta, that 'this has come into being'?"

"One sees with right discernment, lord, that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


SN 12.37
Not yours
Monks, this body is not yours, nor is it another's.
It should be comprehended, as some earlier, fixed, planned action.
About this the learned noble disciple wisely considers it is dependently arisen.
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html


PS: If th body is not our, if it is conditioned fenomena, so how all thought can be ours if they is conditioned by an conditioned phenomena with is the body? If our body is not our, how can we control it? It's illusion.

Anyway, we shuld be carefull :

SN 12.38-39-40
Cetana Sutta: Intention

"If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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