Pali training rules

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Caraka
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Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

where do you get "the Great Reasons of truth"?


I'm not sure why I wrote that. :thinking:
daverupa
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Re: Pali training rules

Post by daverupa »

Caraka wrote:For this post I was commited only to the translation, not the faith we might put in the words
How are these different? Unless you mean that it is the transliteration you sought?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Caraka
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Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

How are these different? Unless you mean that it is the transliteration you sought?
Why don't you think there are no difference?
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Cittasanto
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Re: Pali training rules

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Caraka wrote:The majjapamādaṭṭhānā part is neither this or that, and can not be easily translated, eg. Pamada and Mada can not be two different words. It is either Pamada or Mada, if it is Mada, it is again Majjapa not Majja. The only exception must be if a Pali word like Pamada can be extracted to more than one Pali word. E.g. Pamada and Mada (I'm not talking about extracting a Pali word to more than one meaning here). If so, I would like to know why?

Surāmeraya can be translated straight out, at last it seems so now.
it can be easily translated.
Surāmeraya is still two words not one and the conjoined words like this still retain their meaning in pali.
translation requires context so a perfect translation of a word may be completely wrong in a particular context.
the task of a translator is to extract what is meant, not a litteral word for word meaning which is not always possible! look at English and German, there are some words in German English has absolutely no equivalent for and a sentence is needed.
When it comes to spiritual texts the problem is expanded due to time and cultural norms no longer present. What may seam quite literal has other passages which expand and clarify the meaning of a phrase so need consideration when it is to do with putting something into practice, such as precepts.

particularly regarding precepts a wider looking glass than what the words alone say is needed as it is something advised and taken up which does not neccesarily show the full context alone.
Saṅkhitta Aṭṭhaṅguposatha Sutta - The Observance Day Endowed with Eight Factors - AN8.41 wrote: ‘"'All of their lives the worthy ones have given up recreational intoxicants that lead to carelessness, abstain from that which intoxicates, and causes of carelessness.
"All of you, for this day and night, should declare to give up recreational intoxicants that lead to carelessness, abstain from that which intoxicates, and causes of carelessness.
So for all of this period, imitating the worthy ones in this regard, the Observance Day will have been fully observed by you.”
This is the fifth factor the observance day is endowed with.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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daverupa
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Re: Pali training rules

Post by daverupa »

Caraka wrote:
How are these different? Unless you mean that it is the transliteration you sought?
Why don't you think there are no difference?
Well, your phrase "faith we might put in the words" is less than clear, so let's back up to that for a moment; what did you mean?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Caraka
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Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

translation requires context so a perfect translation of a word may be completely wrong in a particular context.
the task of a translator is to extract what is meant, not a litteral word for word meaning which is not always possible!
Agree, but I do think not doing both is wrong (at least state a word is impossible to translate and why), cause having a meaning about something does not necessarily makes it true. Thats why I do not like anyone saying it is like this or that. I prefer reproof, or at least reflections that leads towards a reproof. Thats why I think it should be a clear difference between translation, faith, and whats actual true (not talking about what oneself might think is true intellectually, which is faith).
Well, your phrase "faith we might put in the words" is less than clear, so let's back up to that for a moment; what did you mean?
You must excuse me if I'm not clear. For this particular phrase I could have written 'faith we put in the Buddhas words', but I'm not sure it really is his, or just a good intention aiming towards high moral and ethics, and the sound of high moral and ethics shines through most of what I have read so far, including your great links of readings Cittasanto.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Pali training rules

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Caraka wrote:
translation requires context so a perfect translation of a word may be completely wrong in a particular context.
the task of a translator is to extract what is meant, not a litteral word for word meaning which is not always possible!
Agree, but I do think not doing both is wrong (at least state a word is impossible to translate and why), cause having a meaning about something does not necessarily makes it true. Thats why I do not like anyone saying it is like this or that. I prefer reproof, or at least reflections that leads towards a reproof. Thats why I think it should be a clear difference between translation, faith, and whats actual true (not talking about what oneself might think is true intellectually, which is faith).
I never said it is impossible, just other means are sometimes needed to be utilised.
You seam to assume that translators do not reflect, cross reference, have evidence, or anything else and just throw words in as they like, which is not the case as has been shown.

translators tend to try to express the meaning so others can have an easy job and not have to learn another language. when it comes to spiritual texts as vast and old as the Buddhist canon there also needs to be a rendering in a way which makes what is meant easy for new comers to put into practice, so the range is both understood (as shown through & in accord with the vast library of texts) and not taken literally in a narrow manner in an inappropriate way.

if you don't like the current translations learn pali and render everything word for word.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Caraka
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Re: Pali training rules

Post by Caraka »

If anyone want to believe the 5. Precepts, or other translations to be the exact Buddhas words, or meaning. One must also believe only Arhats translated the Pali Canon, and only Arhats was responsible for the oral delivery from generation to generation before the Pali Canon was written, one can, for sure. I don't. Nor do I say or assume you do. And when I say I don't, it is not the same as I claim everyone doing so for being idiots or wrongdoing, or have no insight at all. I only say it is for oneself to find out, and there is more colors than just black and white.
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Re: Pali training rules

Post by Cittasanto »

Caraka wrote:If anyone want to believe the 5. Precepts, or other translations to be the exact Buddhas words, or meaning. One must also believe only Arhats translated the Pali Canon, and only Arhats was responsible for the oral delivery from generation to generation before the Pali Canon was written, one can, for sure. I don't. Nor do I say or assume you do. And when I say I don't, it is not the same as I claim everyone doing so for being idiots or wrongdoing, or have no insight at all. I only say it is for oneself to find out, and there is more colors than just black and white.
I am afraid you are not being clear here, and don't seam to be addressing anything said to you.

if you don't, nor say/assume others do then why say it at all?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
whynotme
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Re: Pali training rules

Post by whynotme »

Caraka wrote:I agree with Wiki, its text is about refrain from alcohol or carelessness from alcohol. This translation seems also to be supported by other different Buddhist traditions. E.g. the Chinese Mahayana texts just say 'Do not drink alcohol'. And I think the 5 Precept should not be generalised for the good intentions of translator, it should be left to the reader to investigate what the Precepts means for the individual.

Thanks for helping me out in this, all of you.
I agree with you, keeping word to word translation also show respect to the teacher/tradition and the scientific attitude

Regards
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