Jhana Question

[LonesomeYogurt]

Then what?

Mr. Billings raises a good point - except for some incredibly pro-Jhana fringe opinions, almost all would agree that obtaining Jhana is not the end of our path. It's a great tool but it must be balanced with insight. I know a lot of people who have obtained every Jhana there is but far fewer truly noble ones who have put it to good use!

[pegembara]

Abandoning the 5 hindrances, one enters the jhanas. Having entered the jhana one contemplates the 4NT

Abandoning the Hindrances
"Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness & alertness, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a wilderness, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a forest grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

"Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

The Four Jhanas
"Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment — then, quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[pegembara]

Abandoning the 5 hindrances, one enters the jhanas. Having entered the jhana one contemplates the 4NT. Anapanasati is one way of abandoning the hindrances.

Abandoning the Hindrances
"Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness & alertness, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a wilderness, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a forest grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

"Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

The Four Jhanas
"Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment — then, quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Son]

Then what?

Mr. Billings raises a good point - except for some incredibly pro-Jhana fringe opinions, almost all would agree that obtaining Jhana is not the end of our path. It's a great tool but it must be balanced with insight. I know a lot of people who have obtained every Jhana there is but far fewer truly noble ones who have put it to good use!

There are those who attain arhatship (nirvana) in four ways: with insight preceded by tranquility, tranquility preceded by insight, insight and tranquility conceived in unison, or by spontaneously profoundly inspired concentrated practicing of the truth. A jhana may or may not be involved but tranquility usually is, as well as insight.

[porpoise]

There are those who attain arhatship (nirvana) in four ways: with insight preceded by tranquility, tranquility preceded by insight, insight and tranquility conceived in unison, or by spontaneously profoundly inspired concentrated practicing of the truth. A jhana may or may not be involved but tranquility usually is, as well as insight.

I sometimes wonder whether tranquillity and insight are just 2 sides of the same coin. I also wonder whether jhana is itself transformative - partly in view of the fact that the progression through the jhanas is repeatedly described in the suttas, eg prior to the Buddha's enlightenment.

[Micheal Kush]

Those questions you should not ask me. Obviously, I can't speak for Ajahn Brahm, nor do I intend to. But this hasn't got a lot to do with the topic anyway.

So I'd say Micheal, try out and whatever works, do that. Get stuck? Perhaps try a different method. Find more peace slowly but surely. That's the only way to find out what the Buddha taught.

Metta!

I would suggest, for you, more seclusion. I don't just mean from people, but seclusion from things that generally surround you. From objects, familiarities. While focusing on breath, try to exclude the advice and practicals of attaining jhana. And seclude yourself from... well anything that comes into your mind--it is all just disturbances my friend, tickling that keeps the stillness necessary for establishing jhana away. The stillness is what you're trying for. Once stillness arises, the bliss emerges, and once you have utterly surrendered to the stillness (which requires absolute seclusion), you simply ABSORB into the bliss. That's the jhana. You have then "attained" it.

The animals in the forest analogy was PERFECT.

I understand exactly what your saying and im trying to work on it. Well for one thing, i think your dead accurate pertaining to selcusion from objects and other things that why the sutta(forgot which one and vaguely remember the characters) the one where a practitioner says that the household life is not meant for the development of jhana and homelessness would be more of a supportive factor. Its not that living in a house is hard to meditate in, its the temptations that surround me that make my focus fragile. Though i establish mindfulness at all times, it gets easily tedious trying to avoid certain distractions and when my sudden impulses drive me to be absorbed in objects i shouldnt be absorbed in. I guess i can try to be more secluded and practice more mindfulness in my enviroment, its until something like when school comes around that makes it big hindrance.

But my more seclusion is my better choice in this. Thank you for information

With metta, mike

[RatherSkeptic]

Hello here,

I think I could use this thread, because I also have some issues about Samatha meditation. The more I read about it, the more confused I am. But I definitely need some advice, as my own progress in samatha after a whole year of practise is somewhere around 0,00% :

I always wonder how exactly you have to "look" at your meditation objekt in samatha, because it seems like the teachings are somewhat contradictive. On one hand, it is taught that I have to analyse the breath moment by moment, eliminating all the disctractions and knowing about every single detail of how it feels like, right?

But on the other hand, I read that the breath - in samatha - should be just regarded as a concept, just noting "in" and "out" all the time, not paying attention to the qualities of that breath. I have found this side (http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Other/Anapana/anapana.html) on the internet, and the teacher here, Chanmyay Sayādaw, talks about this:

Say you come into the room through the door and go out of the room through the door. We may ask, “What is this coming in and going out?” it is neither you, nor a person. It is just ‘coming-in’ and ‘going-out.’ It is just concept. In the same way, when you concentrate on the coming in and going out of the breath, it is just a concept. Since concept is the object of meditation, it is samatha meditation. You cannot realise any specific characteristics or general characteristics of ‘coming-in’ and ‘going-out’ because they are not realities, just concepts, so that’s samatha meditation.

However, if you focus your mind on the point where the breath touches whenever it comes in or goes out, it touches the nostrils. When you observe this touching sensation and are mindful of it, then it is (ultimate) reality. That touching point is composed of the four primary material elements: pathavī dhātu, hard or soft; āpo dhātu, liquidity or cohesion; tejo dhātu, hot or cold; vāyo dhātu, movement or vibration. These four elements are there whenever you focus your mind on the touching sensation. So the object is absolute reality. What can we call it — samatha or vipassanā meditation? It is vipassanā.

According to him, it seems like analysing the touch/feeling of the breath is wrong if you want to practise samatha successfully...

This is not the only thing that confuses me, but I think it's enough for now.

[santa100]

It's a gradual process. At the beginning, you could try the simple thing first, like the awareness of the in and out breaths at the nostrils gates. Once a certain level of concentration has been firmly established, then you can get into those more detail analysis with feeling, mind, etc..

[reflection]

The best way to get around confusion is to try and see what works. Stick with what works for as long as it's useful and be wise enough to switch techniques if you see no more progression in a certain approach.

[daverupa]

I recommend pursuing the anapanasati instructions, and conforming to that practice after one has familiarized oneself with sense restraint, food restraint, and made satisampajanna something of a daily activity. Meditation is greatly facilitated by these preliminary grades.

[LonesomeYogurt]

Hello here,

I think I could use this thread, because I also have some issues about Samatha meditation. The more I read about it, the more confused I am. But I definitely need some advice, as my own progress in samatha after a whole year of practise is somewhere around 0,00% :

I always wonder how exactly you have to "look" at your meditation objekt in samatha, because it seems like the teachings are somewhat contradictive. On one hand, it is taught that I have to analyse the breath moment by moment, eliminating all the disctractions and knowing about every single detail of how it feels like, right?

But on the other hand, I read that the breath - in samatha - should be just regarded as a concept, just noting "in" and "out" all the time, not paying attention to the qualities of that breath. I have found this side (http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Other/Anapana/anapana.html) on the internet, and the teacher here, Chanmyay Sayādaw, talks about this:

Say you come into the room through the door and go out of the room through the door. We may ask, “What is this coming in and going out?” it is neither you, nor a person. It is just ‘coming-in’ and ‘going-out.’ It is just concept. In the same way, when you concentrate on the coming in and going out of the breath, it is just a concept. Since concept is the object of meditation, it is samatha meditation. You cannot realise any specific characteristics or general characteristics of ‘coming-in’ and ‘going-out’ because they are not realities, just concepts, so that’s samatha meditation.

However, if you focus your mind on the point where the breath touches whenever it comes in or goes out, it touches the nostrils. When you observe this touching sensation and are mindful of it, then it is (ultimate) reality. That touching point is composed of the four primary material elements: pathavī dhātu, hard or soft; āpo dhātu, liquidity or cohesion; tejo dhātu, hot or cold; vāyo dhātu, movement or vibration. These four elements are there whenever you focus your mind on the touching sensation. So the object is absolute reality. What can we call it — samatha or vipassanā meditation? It is vipassanā.

According to him, it seems like analysing the touch/feeling of the breath is wrong if you want to practise samatha successfully...

This is not the only thing that confuses me, but I think it's enough for now.

This is a common distinction made by followers of Mahasi Sayadaw, but I strongly disagree. The first set of instructions is far, far more conducive to achieving concentration. Just try and experience the whole of the breath, in and out, using a mantra like "Buh-Do" or "Letting-Go" or something like that.

[RatherSkeptic]

If I understood your answers correctly, you are recommending the use of concept-method first to gain samadhi. Allright then, even if it sometimes reminds me of hypnosis.

Now, there's another question which has been certainly discussed before, but I feel the need to bring it up again: Where to locate the breath?

I know many of you allready spoke about that the breath needs to be observed at one particular point, like at the nostril or the upper lip, and that your attention should stay fixed there, not following the breath all the way down to the lungs. And I also read about it in books of Bhante Gunaratana and other teachers.

Therefore, I was surprised to find out that some others respected authorities like Ajahn Brahm tell exactly the opposite:

In fact it is best not to locate the breath anywhere! If you locate the breath at the tip of your nose then it becomes nose awareness, not breath awareness, and if you locate it at your abdomen then it becomes abdomen awareness. Just ask yourself the question right now, 'Am I breathing in or am I breathing out?' How do you know? There! That experience which tells you what the breath is doing, that is what you focus on in breath meditation. Let go of concern about where this experience is located; just focus on the experience itself.


Source: http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_ ... tation.htm - it's in part 2.

Of course, I've tried both, and both methods have their benefits and difficulties:

Just focussing one point strongly was indeed more calming for the mind - until the moment where either the point went numb (after only a few minutes) or my entire nose started feeling so itchy that I had to interrupt and scratch, again and again.

On the other hand, focusing on the experience without looking at any point at my nose allowed me not to lose touch with the breath ( I would first feel it around the left nostril, then the right nostril, then more up in the nose, and so on...). The bad thing about this: My mind wanders around with the breath as well, and it also feels so different in these multiple areas that feel I like...this:

[daverupa]

I don't use breathing-spots as I don't think they are essential, and in my case they aren't helpful; anapanasati, as I understand the instructions in the Suttas, doesn't advise focusing on the breath at all, but rather the performance of the instructions alongside breathing, which acts something like a metronome. I understand the fourth instruction in the first tetrad, for example, to suggest calming intention with respect to the breath, rather than calming the breath itself.

[danieLion]

I don't use breathing-spots as I don't think they are essential, and in my case they aren't helpful; anapanasati, as I understand the instructions in the Suttas, doesn't advise focusing on the breath at all, but rather the performance of the instructions alongside breathing, which acts something like a metronome. I understand the fourth instruction in the first tetrad, for example, to suggest calming intention with respect to the breath, rather than calming the breath itself.

I use breathing spots (not exclusively) and don't think they're essential either. The metronome analogy is spot on.

Calming intention with respect to breath calms my breathing too, but I don't know if that's a universal side effect.

[daverupa]

Calming intention with respect to breath calms my breathing too, but I don't know if that's a universal side effect.

Well, as I read the first two steps of the first tetrad of anapanasati, whether long or short it doesn't matter. Stepping back by framing the breath as just a percept among percepts, let go of being involved with any of it.

The result is seclusion from kama, it seems to me.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

I'm leaning a bit towards a linear progression reading of satipatthana; it doesn't really pan out to see the first tetrad as having first jhana as a result, but I am thinking along the lines of satipatthana and jhana comprising the first and last parts of the seven factors for awakening...

[Son]

There are those who attain arhatship (nirvana) in four ways: with insight preceded by tranquility, tranquility preceded by insight, insight and tranquility conceived in unison, or by spontaneously profoundly inspired concentrated practicing of the truth. A jhana may or may not be involved but tranquility usually is, as well as insight.

I sometimes wonder whether tranquillity and insight are just 2 sides of the same coin. I also wonder whether jhana is itself transformative - partly in view of the fact that the progression through the jhanas is repeatedly described in the suttas, eg prior to the Buddha's enlightenment.

Insight and tranquility are definitely codependent; or so as the suttas and other Hindu literature insinuates.
What do you mean by the jhanas being "transformative" or not?

[LonesomeYogurt]

If I understood your answers correctly, you are recommending the use of concept-method first to gain samadhi. Allright then, even if it sometimes reminds me of hypnosis.

I'm sorry if I was unclear, what I meant to say is that I recommend knowing the sensation and quality of the breath and not simply treating it as a concept. You are supposed to establish mindfulness with the breath and I don't think just treating it as a metronome fulfills that at all.

I know many of you allready spoke about that the breath needs to be observed at one particular point, like at the nostril or the upper lip, and that your attention should stay fixed there, not following the breath all the way down to the lungs. And I also read about it in books of Bhante Gunaratana and other teachers.

This is the approach I'd recommend. If you have trouble with it switching between left or right nostril, I have two recommendations:

1. Try locating the breath on the upper lip instead of in or on the nostrils. The breath can be a little spotty in the nose itself, but it usually calms down by the time it gets to the upper lip itself. If you do end up losing touch with your breath, breath very hard for about five breaths and note where the breath hits. Try and keep your attention on that spot, usually on the curve right before your upper lip starts, and see if you can't start noticing a small pressure on it after a short period of observation.

2. If you're willing to endure a slightly unpleasant feeling, try cupping warm water in your hands, snorting it up into your nose, and blowing it back out. Doing this one or two times will clear your nose and make it far more sensitive, allowing for a much easier knowing of the sensation. Let me tell you, this little tip from Buddhadasa was the most effective advice I've ever gotten on meditation.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing the breath at a specific point, but it does, in my experience, make deep concentration a little harder. I'd really recommend trying to nail down where the breath hits at first. It's like pounding in a nail; you have to hold it physically for a short time but you can let go once you've got it deep enough in the wall. In the same way, you have to know the breath by sensation until you're concentrated enough to "take your fingers off the nail" and just know the breath itself.

Just my two cents. Please PM me if you have any other questions or if I wasn't clear. I'll try and at least point you towards someone who knows what they're talking about. Good luck!

[manas]

I keep noticing something and thought this topic would be as appropriate a place as any to mention it.

I so often see jhana classified as 'samatha'. But from my modest brushes with jhana cultivation, I can say that (for me at least), calling it 'samatha' is the wrong term. If we examine how the five hindrances are to be overcome, we can plainly see that insight and wisdom are just as integral to it, as is tranquillity.

We should not call jhana 'samatha', but rather just jhana, cos that's what it is. If i *just* wanted calm I would lie down in the grass, in the light of a sunset, by a beautiful lake and listen to the crickets chirp. But we all know that's not what jhana is really about. Jhana is the path to freedom, is it not? IMHO jhana is tough 'spiritual work'.

Hope my words did not cause offense to anyone, but I wanted to get that off my chest.

metta.

[tiltbillings]

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samatha.htm

samatha'

tranquillity', serenity, is a synonym of

samādhi (concentration),

cittekaggatā (one-pointed ness of mind) and

avikkhepa (undistracted ness).

It is one of the mental factors in wholesome consciousness. Cf. foll. and bhāvanā.

[pegembara]

Silenced in body, silenced in speech,
silenced in mind, without inner noise,
Blessed with silence is the sage!
He is truly washed of all evil ...
(Itivuttaka 3.67)

That is the goal of jhana but:

There is no jhána without wisdom,
there is no wisdom without jhána,
but for someone with both jhána and wisdom,
Nibbána is near.' (Dhp 372)

And:


'For a person with right samádhi there is no need to arouse the wish,
´May I see things as they truly are.´
It is a natural process, it is in accordance with nature that someone with right samádhi will see things as they truly are.' (AN 10.3)