Quick question about Buddhist Manners

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mikenz66
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by mikenz66 »

TheDhamma wrote: That is great (in my opinion) that the UK monks have adapted and acknowledge the greeting of the lay person.
I don't want to sound overly argumentative, but might be useful if you could give some reasons
why it might be considered "great". In what ways does it make the teaching of Dhamma and interaction with lay people more effective? How does it help the lay people and the monks? How does it aid liberation?

In addition to what I said above about mindfulness, from my point of view the Sangha is an inspiration a role model (obviously "role model" is a slightly problematic term in this case, but role model in the sense of restraint, compassion, etc). I don't go to make offerings or talk to Monks to "have a good time with my mates", I can do that elsewhere.

I don't mean that I expect them to be unfriendly. The monks I know actually joke quite a lot (in the approprate circumstances), acknowledge me with motions of the eyes or head, and will often initiate physical contact. I think it's a reasonable balance.

Metta
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by DNS »

mikenz66 wrote: I don't go to make offerings or talk to Monks to "have a good time with my mates", I can do that elsewhere.
Neither do I. :) I was just curious why many monks do not respond with a nod acknowledgment. I was asking if there was a Vinaya rule and mentioned that it would not matter; either way I would still bow.

Others have asked this too, not just Ven. Dhammika. Out of respect, most just do not bring it up as an issue to the monks. But it is probably something that could easily be clarified with explanation to the Vinaya or culture?
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gavesako
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by gavesako »

It was more of an issue regarding nuns: Thai monks, when another junior monk bows to them, put their hands in anjali as a gesture of acknowledgement (this is actually not according to Vinaya). But they don't do it for nuns or laypeople. Now in UK, it was agreed that it is OK to acknowledge nuns in this way as well.
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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retrofuturist
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike, all
mikenz66 wrote:I don't want to sound overly argumentative, but might be useful if you could give some reasons why it might be considered "great". In what ways does it make the teaching of Dhamma and interaction with lay people more effective? How does it help the lay people and the monks? How does it aid liberation?
I wouldn't have said "great" as such, but I do see how it could be used as an acknowledgement that the lay person had paid reverence appropriately. If you don't know, and if no one tells you, and you get no reaction from the monk... someone could easily think they'd done the wrong thing and caused some kind of offence. Standard Buddhist conventions often go against the grain of cultural norms in the West, so I don't think it hurts to acknowledge the effort with a small nod or a smile.

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Retro. :)
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by appicchato »

gavesako wrote:In the Vinaya, there are some people who a bhikkhu should not greet (vandana) in this way: among them are a more junior monk, a layperson.
Greetings,

In what way?...how does one ascertain a junior monk if he isn't known?...a wai, or a returned wai is still in order...no?...

I 'wai' (anjali) other monks, smile and, perhaps, nod (slightly) also when 'waied' by lay people, and on (very) rare occasions shake a hand...

People here are using the term 'bow'...and some, I think, have two different ideas of what this is...what is 'bow'?...are we talking 'grap'...five point prostration?...or anjali?...can't tell without a program...

If one is uncertain, a wai (anjali) and a smile will not steer you wrong...although in Thailand sometimes eye contact and a smile are a no go...every situation is different...

Be well... :smile:
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by Dhammanando »

appicchato wrote:If one is uncertain, a wai (anjali) and a smile will not steer you wrong.
Unless you're a Bangkok Buddhist schoolgirl whose parents have enrolled you in Assumption RC College. While at school the girls will be expected to behave like Catholics, which means no waiing to monks or Buddha statues. Whenever I walk past by Assumption on the way to my Abhidhamma classes the Buddhist pupils will look around to check if there are any Catholic nuns watching; if there are none then they will wai in the usual manner. If a nun is watching, they'll wai all the same, but to avoid a scolding they'll cunningly disguise it as a sneeze.
:jumping:

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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

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I once did a "wai" to a monk in Thailand who was actually just a samanera, and HE felt very embarrassed about it: he tried to stop me from doing it. So it is a subtle thing, one has to find out somehow where the other monk is at in terms of seniority.
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mikenz66
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by mikenz66 »

gavesako wrote:I once did a "wai" to a monk in Thailand who was actually just a samanera, and HE felt very embarrassed about it: he tried to stop me from doing it. So it is a subtle thing, one has to find out somehow where the other monk is at in terms of seniority.
Hmm... Similarly, I've been scolded (nicely :)) for waiing Thai friends who are younger than me.

This is getting a little off topic, but as Ven Gavesako would well know the younger person is supposed to do it first, then I can return it...
In Thai culture, knowing where you are in the "pecking order" is important. More than once when I've met someone Thai the conversation has been:
"What's your name?"
"Mike"
"How old are you?"
...
I guess the Monastic equivalent question is "How many rains?"

Great story about the RC's Ven Dhammanando!

Perhaps getting slightly back on track, anyone who feels somehow aggrieved about not having their anjali returned by Theravada monks should remember that the King of Thailand doesn't get his bows returned either... :anjali:

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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by appicchato »

mikenz66 wrote:In Thai culture, knowing where you are in the "pecking order" is important.
Exteeemly important...there are no 'equals'...everyone, repeat, everyone is either a 'pee' (senior/elder) or 'nong' (junior)...and all the baggage that goes along with it... :quote:
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

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retrofuturist wrote: Standard Buddhist conventions often go against the grain of cultural norms in the West, so I don't think it hurts to acknowledge the effort with a small nod or a smile.
Yes, that is all I meant and was referring to. And it could be beneficial in other ways too, for example, spreading Dhamma. The Buddha often used and spoke about skilful means:

At its best skilful means is a type of flexibility and sympathy. The Buddha said he would adapt his speech and even his appearance to be better able to teach the Dhamma to different types of people. ‘I remember well many assemblies of patricians, priests, householders, ascetics and gods…that I have attended. Before I sat with them, spoke to them or joined their conversation, I adopted their appearance and their speech whatever it might be and then I instructed them in Dhamma’ (D II.109).

Thus, I maintain, that it would be good or even great if the monks did use skilful means if living in the West and responded with a nod or smile (as long as there is no Vinaya rule against it). In the West, it is just common courtesy, just as if someone extended their arm to shake hands and you shake it back, even if you do not know them, answer requests for directions from strangers, etc. I'm not saying that in Thailand or another country they do not do that, but in the West it is considered impolite to not acknowledge (not placing a value judgment if that is correct or not just that this is the cultural norm) even if you are superior in rank, etc. It would be skilful means to acknowledge, which the Buddha did advocate.
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by Fede »

I feel as if I inadvertently whacked a hornet's nest.....! :shock:
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Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Mawkish1983
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Okay, I'm confused :)

Firstly: What's a wai?
Secondly: What is the polite thing for a dude like me to do if I encounter someone wearing robes? I don't know what colours or styles represent... is it something I'd have to learn or is there a generic way to mark my respect to the Sangha without causing offence?
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by Dhammanando »

Mawkish1983 wrote:Okay, I'm confused :)

Firstly: What's a wai?
It's the Thai word for a folded hand salute, called 'añjali' in Pali.

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http://forestwisdom.blogspot.com/2008/02/why-wai.html
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It turns out otherwise.
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gavesako
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Re: Quick question about Buddhist Manners

Post by gavesako »

Dhammanando wrote:
appicchato wrote:If one is uncertain, a wai (anjali) and a smile will not steer you wrong.
Unless you're a Bangkok Buddhist schoolgirl whose parents have enrolled you in Assumption RC College. While at school the girls will be expected to behave like Catholics, which means no waiing to monks or Buddha statues. Whenever I walk past by Assumption on the way to my Abhidhamma classes the Buddhist pupils will look around to check if there are any Catholic nuns watching; if there are none then they will wai in the usual manner. If a nun is watching, they'll wai all the same, but to avoid a scolding they'll cunningly disguise it as a sneeze.
:jumping:

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Here is Germany, you should see the polite Thai women when they leave the monastery: they slightly bow their head with a "wai" and then say, in German, "Tschüss!"

:lol:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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