Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Billymac29 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:46 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:
as already pointed out, Marajuana was allowed by the Buddha for Rheumatoid pain.
and the Buddha advises us to look after this body & to keep healthy.

Where did the buddha talk about marijuana?

with metta


it is within the vinaya!
as already mentioned in the thread here viewtopic.php?f=42&t=13494#p200739

This is the portion of that web link that you are referring to?
Like many people before and since, the Buddha recognized the medicinal value of cannabis and he recommended it as a cure for rheumatism (aṅgavāta). The patient should be placed, he said, in a small room filled with steam from a tub of boiling water and cannabis leaves (bhaṅgodaka), and inhale the steam and rub it on the limbs (Vin.I,205).

and it says this right before that line.
From the Buddhist perspective, taking cannabis would be breaking the fifth Precept.


???? that makes it a little confusing, unless he is saying the buddha was prescribing this to laymen, not monks.. ???
I dunno
with metta :smile:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby marc108 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:40 pm

Billymac29 wrote:I've had pain before. I never said that certain medicines were off the list of the 5th precept. Sorry, that is the precept.. If your afraid to die or get sick, then thats suffering.. Show me the sutta where buddha told people to smoke pot and i will believe it.
The buddha laid down cause he was in pain.. He didn't smoke pot..lol



using a painkiller isn't being afraid to die or get sick. it's very easy to make judgement calls on things like this until you live every day feeling like someone stuck a butcher knife in your spine. the point i was trying to make about the Buddha is that he didn't just continue on completely immune to the pain, he laid down to relieve it. he allowed for the use of substances common in his day as medicine that would be intoxicating in higher doses. the purpose of the 5th precept is to avoid intoxication, and not a demonizing of the substance itself... again the example of the Buddha allowing alcohol in medicine. The Buddha didn't tell people to use opioid narcotics or NSAIDS either, but I seriously doubt he would recommend against their use... really that would be counter to his nature.

just to clear this up, marijuana contains chemicals called cannabinoids that interact with the endocannabinoid system in the brain & body... dulling pain perception in the brain & reducing inflammation. Tylanol (Acetaminophen) also works through this same pathway. its a very common misconception that the way marijuana relieves pain is through intoxication, but that is not the case. generally, marijuana used in lower doses is not intoxicating after one acclimates to it... the same way that opioid based pain killers do not intoxicate.

to completely bar a substance for medicinal use is not in line with the teachings of the Buddha.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Billymac29 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:16 pm

he allowed for the use of substances common in his day as medicine that would be intoxicating in higher doses. the purpose of the 5th precept is to avoid intoxication, and not a demonizing of the substance itself...


i could see that :)
with metta
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby R.B.LANDGE » Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:12 am

Billymac29 wrote:
he allowed for the use of substances common in his day as medicine that would be intoxicating in higher doses. the purpose of the 5th precept is to avoid intoxication, and not a demonizing of the substance itself...


i could see that :)
with metta


Selling Marijuna for medicinal purposes only with proper selling license from government authority and maintaining the record as a guideline,i.e. by a person who is professional and registered medicine seller, can not be called a violation of fifth
precept. This is very correct according to the MIDDLE PATH or wise path (avoiding extremes of everything in life) as LORD BUDDHA followed in all walk of life. Otherwise selling of Knife, blade etc which can take anybodies life if used in greed or hatred would be called the violation of first precept. Selling the marijuana is not against Dhamma but intention behind counts, in relation to precepts, as I think.

May all follow DHAMMA and all be happy, blissfull.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:53 am

Billymac29 wrote:thats a link to a dhammawiki site..... where in the actual parts of the vinaya is marijuana stated?


it uses the references from the PTS at the end of the Wiki article Vin.1,205 which is the Mahavagga chapter six.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:25 am

Billymac29 wrote:This is the portion of that web link that you are referring to?
Like many people before and since, the Buddha recognized the medicinal value of cannabis and he recommended it as a cure for rheumatism (aṅgavāta). The patient should be placed, he said, in a small room filled with steam from a tub of boiling water and cannabis leaves (bhaṅgodaka), and inhale the steam and rub it on the limbs (Vin.I,205).

and it says this right before that line.
From the Buddhist perspective, taking cannabis would be breaking the fifth Precept.


???? that makes it a little confusing, unless he is saying the buddha was prescribing this to laymen, not monks.. ???
I dunno
with metta :smile:

they are different paragraphs dealing with different points, the clauses are not related other than subject matter (marijuana).

Taking marijuana for recreational (intoxicating) purposes is breaking the precept. wrote:For centuries, certain sects of Hindu ascetics have smoked cannabis believing that they are able to commune with Siva while under its influence, although taking cannabis for its hallucinogenic effect is mentioned nowhere in the Tipiṭaka. From the Buddhist perspective, taking cannabis would be breaking the fifth Precept.


Taking Marijuana for medicinal purposes is not breaking the precept. wrote:Like many people before and since, the Buddha recognized the medicinal value of cannabis and he recommended it as a cure for rheumatism (aṅgavāta). The patient should be placed, he said, in a small room filled with steam from a tub of boiling water and cannabis leaves (bhaṅgodaka), and inhale the steam and rub it on the limbs (Vin.I,205).
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Annapurna » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:14 pm

R.B.LANDGE wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:
he allowed for the use of substances common in his day as medicine that would be intoxicating in higher doses. the purpose of the 5th precept is to avoid intoxication, and not a demonizing of the substance itself...


i could see that :)
with metta


Selling Marijuna for medicinal purposes only with proper selling license from government authority and maintaining the record as a guideline,i.e. by a person who is professional and registered medicine seller, can not be called a violation of fifth
precept. This is very correct according to the MIDDLE PATH or wise path (avoiding extremes of everything in life) as LORD BUDDHA followed in all walk of life. Otherwise selling of Knife, blade etc which can take anybodies life if used in greed or hatred would be called the violation of first precept. Selling the marijuana is not against Dhamma but intention behind counts, in relation to precepts, as I think.

May all follow DHAMMA and all be happy, blissfull.


Good (first ) post!

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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:48 am

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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:30 am

From an ordinary aspect, everybody is selling medicin who is inolved in selling (gaining something better form something). Selling something that abstracted or cheates the mind and in that way blockes intentional the view to reality and the possibility to act wholesome, can not easily calles to be not violating the 5th precept, even it might be subtile.

Individual situations as well as the individuall counciousness (with it the capacity of kusala intention) might be different and I guess the essay Educating Compassion might be useful to understand the intention of the Buddha in regard of compassion. Dhukka is an importand part of the teaching pair to get free of it and not just suppressed for a while.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby manas » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:46 pm

Hi all,

I think there is apprehension around marijuana due to it's almost universal suppression by most governments around the world, basically for financial reasons (eg, they make so much off taxes on alcohol, which can't be grown in one's backyard free of charge, and more to the point of this discussion, marijuana has so many possible healing effects that it would severely impact upon the profits of the pharmaceutical drug industry, should it's use become widespread - hence the strong suppression with laws, etc.) In the backs of our minds we might still think that government has our best interests at heart when they make marijuana 'illegal', but it's not our interests they are promoting in this instance.

manas.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:06 pm

manas wrote:Hi all,

I think there is apprehension around marijuana due to it's almost universal suppression by most governments around the world, basically for financial reasons (eg, they make so much off taxes on alcohol, which can't be grown in one's backyard free of charge, and more to the point of this discussion, marijuana has so many possible healing effects that it would severely impact upon the profits of the pharmaceutical drug industry, should it's use become widespread - hence the strong suppression with laws, etc.) In the backs of our minds we might still think that government has our best interests at heart when they make marijuana 'illegal', but it's not our interests they are promoting in this instance.

manas.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still an intoxicant.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:20 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:...the fact that it is still an intoxicant.

This is not a fact. It's an opinion based upon some users reports. Not all users report it's effects as intoxicating. Some report exactly the opposite.

Plus, illegalization obstructs ability to research and develop innovative products like the balms that have recently come out. They can still get you "high", but some users report TOTAL pain relief and little or no "intoxicating" side effects.

Plus, when cannabis can make the difference between, e.g., getting your chores done v. having to lie down, "intoxication" becomes irrelevant because the medicine is doing its job.

The only substantial reason pot's illegal is because the paper industry doesn't want it to be and they have money to lobby it into illegality.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:43 am

but some users report TOTAL pain relief and little or no "intoxicating" side effects

Most drunkwards would swear that they are not drunken, even asked by the police. Of course they also report total relief of pain. That is what cheating brings about and it seems to be unintentional. What might be the cause?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:00 am

Hanzze wrote:
but some users report TOTAL pain relief and little or no "intoxicating" side effects

Most drunkwards would swear that they are not drunken, even asked by the police. Of course they also report total relief of pain. That is what cheating brings about and it seems to be unintentional. What might be the cause?

We must be talking to different "drunkards"--if by "drunkard" you mean alcoholics. Perhaps they're the same drunkards that hang out on "the corner smoking skunk" Aloka swears are real?

And when those intoxicated on alcohol get asked by the police if they're intoxicated and they deny it, it's not because they forgot. It's because they're lying.

The cops I've interacted with don't interview people about pain.

I don't know what you mean by "cheating".

The only substantial reason pot's illegal is because the paper industry doesn't want it to be and they have money to lobby it into illegality.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:30 am

Hanzze,
I'm glad you brought up ethanol. Ethanol has medicinal properties but they are usually outweighed by side effects. The medicinal properties of cannabis, in contrast, are much more numerous and the side effects are negligible. The same can be said for most opiate based and "anti-depressant" pharmaceuticals.

The only substantial reason pot's illegal is because the paper industry doesn't want it to be and they have money to lobby it into illegality.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:59 am

danieLion wrote:
Hanzze wrote:
but some users report TOTAL pain relief and little or no "intoxicating" side effects

Most drunkwards would swear that they are not drunken, even asked by the police. Of course they also report total relief of pain. That is what cheating brings about and it seems to be unintentional. What might be the cause?

We must be talking to different "drunkards"--if by "drunkard" you mean alcoholics. Perhaps they're the same drunkards that hang out on "the corner smoking skunk" Aloka swears are real?

And when those intoxicated on alcohol get asked by the police if they're intoxicated and they deny it, it's not because they forgot. It's because they're lying.

The cops I've interacted with don't interview people about pain.

I don't know what you mean by "cheating".

The only substantial reason pot's illegal is because the paper industry doesn't want it to be and they have money to lobby it into illegality.

danieLion,

look, the reason why one should better not take indoxicants is, because they change the awareness (good bad is not so the matter). So cheating will not be realised, the level of intention might be different, but the effect of indoxicants, even subtile is the same.

I did not talk about a lie while aware of it. If somebody would not believe that it is good for him, he would not take it. As long somebody believes that deeds have no real unwholesome effects, one will continue. Not knowing things now, it's good to relay on wise people. Buddha is hardly regarded as one.

And one further thing is that somebody with less understanding would simply imitate somebody who takes something out of another reason. So wise people even do not take indoxicats even if they would not be touched by it. For them on the way it's a selfprotection and for those more advanced a matter of protecting others.
Generally the blameless samples are wiser to be followed as those which are mainly maintained through constructions of thoughts and excuses.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:23 am

Hanzze,
Where did the Buddha say cannabis is an intoxicant?

And now I'm even less clear by what you mean by "cheating."

The principal reason cannabis is criminalized is because the powerful lobbies funded by the grossly wealthy paper and pharmaceutical industries believe it's not in their best interests.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:44 am

As told before, that is maybe not the wise way to approach the Dhamma. Where did he told not to kill a silverfish. Argue in this way is a kind of cheating, cheating is a appearence of curruption, curruption comes from clincing on what supports the self.

The precepts are simple and straight forward and are addoptable for any kind of state of awarness. To draw lines of matters to build up an ecxuse or a bridge to continue unwholesome habits may be usuall but break down if things are seen more objetivly and lesser in comparation with self evaluation.

Support one to violate virtue will have it's effect, you might observe it, as one needs to excuse and declare his ways and in this way think and brood over it permanently. Doubt and guilty conscience (if lack of moral shame is not very dominant) will go ahead with such things. Subtile or aware, this ripping kamma does not easily allow a further development of the other pathfactors leading to understanding.

The wise message of the Buddha in regard of this was simply:

Vanijja Sutta: Business (Wrong Livelihood)

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."


Right action is the forrunner of right livelihood, and if understood and observed clearly, one would not be involved in a livelihood that is connected with violating precepts.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:08 am

Hanzze,
Well, at least I know what you mean by "cheating" now, but the rest is just puritanism as far as I can tell.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:56 am

danieLion wrote: puritanism
There is a lot of that in the name of Buddhism.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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