Is color inherent in rupa?

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Alex123
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Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:05 pm

Dear all,

As I understand it, each rūpa kalāpa among other qualities, has : color (vaṇṇa), smell (gandha) and taste (rasa).

Does this mean that according to Abhidhamma: color, smell, and taste exist independent of consciousness (eye, nose, tongue, in this case)?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:14 pm

An unconscious digital camera can detect colour if light reflected from material phenomena, so I guess we should conclude that the quality of colour (i.e. the wave lengths that it absorbs/reflects) is inherent in rūpa.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Alex123
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:30 pm

Bhante, Thank you for your reply.

As I understand it, camera detects electromagnetic wave. Color, such as red, is electromagnetic wave 620–750 nm long with 400–484 THz frequency that is converted to seeing red color in the brain. Obviously red is not inherent in phenomenon because different people can see different color there. Some may see red, some may see black...
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Hanzze
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:26 am

Have you ever observed rupa that has a color?

To the sentence above:
...can detect colour if light (?) reflected from material phenomena -> is inherent? I am not sure if the camera can dedect anything.

I guess it's good to face rupa as an atribute and not that much as material.

What about a color-blind? Mabye color (thinking on the different waves) is related with "fire". Color it self, I would regard more as a mental construct. I guess it's not easy to draw a sharp line, but that is good so.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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DAWN
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:54 am

I'am sorry, i'dont have any experiance of Abhidhamma studying, but i would like to reply:

Light is the wave
Light have not a color
Color is the reflection of this wave
When there is reflection (ex: echo, color), the wave is slowed by the object's surface and so the wave becomes longer and change his propriety.

So we can conclude that the color is not inherent in rupa and the color is not inherent in light, that is an conditioned fenomena, an illusion
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

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mikenz66
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:25 am

Members,

This area is for discussion of Abhidhamma. Posts should be supported by relevant quotes from primary or secondary sources.

Thank you for your cooperation.

:anjali:
Mike

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Hanzze
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:17 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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reflection
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby reflection » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:27 am


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gavesako
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby gavesako » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:24 am

This is also relevant here:

Light Darkness and Colours – Goethe’s Theory of Colours

http://records.photodharma.net/document ... of-colours

In the book Goethe opposed the Newtonian Theory of Colours, and managed to show that there are, in fact, more colours in the spectrum than Newton had recognised, which he illustrated in his famous colour wheel.

Goethe’s theory is that colour arises through the interplay between light and darkness, which can in fact be easily shown, by flooding with light or withdrawing it altogether: the result is the same, nothing can be seen.

In pursuing his expermiments on this theme Goethe came up with some surprising results: colour can be shown to emerge where darkness and light meet, as at the sunrise or sunset, and also that the more intense the light and darkness are the more intense the colours are.

Another surprising thing we find out in this film is that light is invisible: it only becomes visible when it strikes an object. In a vacuum (like outer space) it is not seen. When it hits an object, like a planet, or interplanetary dust, it becomes visible.

Many other surprising and intriguing things are presented in the film, which will make you stop and look again at a phenomena that we so much take for granted.

:group:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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DAWN
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:28 am

Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

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Hanzze
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:30 am

I guess here one must be carefull not to end as a counciousnessless being or a formless being. What ever he might reject, forgetting the other (or better the whole wheel of co-depending origin).
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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reflection
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby reflection » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:33 pm


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DAWN
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:18 pm

Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

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DAWN
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:19 pm

Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

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Alex123
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:47 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Hanzze
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:19 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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DAWN
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:12 am

Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

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gavesako
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby gavesako » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:11 pm

If you want a good discussion of this subject with historical references, see

Buddhist Atomism
The Theories of Paramanu and Kalapa in Post-canonical Buddhism
by Piya Tan

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... m-piya.pdf
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

UhBaUnTaUh
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby UhBaUnTaUh » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:46 am

Namo Buddhaya


Hello. Can I join this topic ?

In Mulatika book said that Vaṇṇa, Gundha, and Rasa don't have in Arūpabhūmi.

However in Atthakatha book didn't seperate write in this case. They only said that Rūpakalāpa in Arūpabhūmi can have eight, nine, or ten qualities.

Ref at gatha 86 : http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/abh06 ... xml#para68

Happy y'all.

note: Wave is a mass of many Rūpakalāpas.
Last edited by UhBaUnTaUh on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Parking this account.

I have been moved to another account.

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Hanzze
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Re: Is color inherent in rupa?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:57 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_


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