Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:34 am

Hello everyone,

I would like to ask you some question about one situation.

Since 1 or 2 years I preparing myself to ordination, 1 meal a day etc etc. My mother seems to be agree.
But this weekand, when i come to my family, my mother and brother, before i leaving, i see my mother crying, she said me that all time (twice a mounth) when i leave the familial home, she cryes. She cryes because she feel very peacefull when i am near, and she said that my brother missing me to...

She tell me that she dont know how the family will leave if i go forth, if i will ordain, and sje said me that if i want i can still at home, live a bhikkhu life or everythink that i want to do ! But just be near to family...

So i would like to ask you what is better for practice and harmony:
- to ordain in a monastery, not be disturbed by internet, world news, and other, live a very simple life; but see my family suffering
or
- to ordain (or not ordain but live a bhikkhu live, guided by patimokkha) and live at home, in city, on the bad of my family, have a risk to be disturbed by internet, world news, modern peoples and friends incomprehention, critucising etc etc; but practicing solo on my own and see my family in peace.

Personaly i dont know how to do.
-I know that in monastery my practice will be more complet, and i feel guilty that i dont feel sad when my mother cryes
-but i know that my mother offered me the best life, so i cant allow to myself to let my familly alone, but i know that the practice can be disturbed and influenced, also i dont want become a "propriety" of my mothers ego...

Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu", it's a noun of this topic.
Last edited by DAWN on Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:59 am

Hi Dawn,
There is no guarantee that monastic life will be as you expect it. You could very well end up in a situation where you continue to be at the mercy of unwanted distractions of various forms and the idyllic simple life you had envisioned may remain an unfulfilled fantasy.
Before you ordain you will need to also consider your family's view on your proposed going forth and your ongoing obligation to your family members. If you do decide to ordain - it should be unencumbered from any kind of debt (whether it be financial or intangible).
There are very many people who live very fulfilling lives as lay people. You may just find that you might have more opportunity for serious practice as a lay person than as a bhikkhu.
Whatever you decide and whatever you do - I wish you the very best.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby James the Giant » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:12 am

My monk friend warned me of this very thing, of Mara attacking in the guise of friends and family not wanting you to go.
If you decide to stay at home you will be soon sucked back to the worldly world. I would not even consider it.
A monastery is the place for a monk.
Householder 5 or 8 precept lay-life is praiseworthy, but the Buddha praised highly those who went forth.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:28 am

Give you and your family time without loosing the way. Things change as well as understanding. When leaving, do not take anything with you. Compromisses are never good, to change the way is one thing, to walk two hurts. The branch will come and then it is time.

As for the question "Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"" neither. Simply Bhikkhu.

Much mudita!
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:59 am

Thanks you all !

If monastic life can brings me more calm and more of present moment, i will not be disappointed.

I will try to explain to my mother that it's not she who cryes, but she's ego. That, being conditioned by my presence, she's ego becomes instable without condition, so that absebce of stability of she's personality makes she crying, and so she must find the stability in she's own heart.

Or trying to explain that offer she's son to The Sangha, is the best that she can do in this life.

I will try.

Thanks you all, one more time. Your words are presious to me.
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:17 pm

DAWN wrote:Thanks you all !

If monastic life can brings me more calm and more of present moment, i will not be disappointed.

I will try to explain to my mother that it's not she who cryes, but she's ego. That, being conditioned by my presence, she's ego becomes instable without condition, so that absebce of stability of she's personality makes she crying, and so she must find the stability in she's own heart.

Or trying to explain that offer she's son to The Sangha, is the best that she can do in this life.

I will try.

Thanks you all, one more time. Your words are presious to me.


With all due respect, you may wish to think carefully about how you manage doing this. If your parents are not Buddhist then what you are thinking of saying to them is very insensitive and may lead to negativity being generated to the Dhamma if not continued resistance for your plans. I suggest you make contact with some monastics and ask their advice as to best negotiate your family's attachment.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:47 pm

Ben wrote:
DAWN wrote:Thanks you all !

If monastic life can brings me more calm and more of present moment, i will not be disappointed.

I will try to explain to my mother that it's not she who cryes, but she's ego. That, being conditioned by my presence, she's ego becomes instable without condition, so that absebce of stability of she's personality makes she crying, and so she must find the stability in she's own heart.

Or trying to explain that offer she's son to The Sangha, is the best that she can do in this life.

I will try.

Thanks you all, one more time. Your words are presious to me.


With all due respect, you may wish to think carefully about how you manage doing this. If your parents are not Buddhist then what you are thinking of saying to them is very insensitive and may lead to negativity being generated to the Dhamma if not continued resistance for your plans. I suggest you make contact with some monastics and ask their advice as to best negotiate your family's attachment.
kind regards,

Ben


Yes, you are reason i must be carefull with such dirrect words.
They aren't buddhist, but she understand my way of thinking about anatta, cosality etc, so my mother and brother have a habit of this kind of direct words that i can pronounce. Anyway i must be carefull.

Also i think about an another way. For some time, mounth or years before ordaing, i will lead a half-homeless life, some kind of dutong, just sleeping at home some times, but living out like an another homeless... And if this way will dont let me practice at the maximum, and after explications it will still brings suffering to my family, i will concider that like a Mara action, and cut all off, and ordain without compromises. I can't spend off this precious life.
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:55 pm

There is no such thing as a "Home Bhikkhu" in the way you describe it.

New Bhikkhus are supposed to live under dependance of their teacher for the first 5 years and I think it's pretty unlikely you'll be allowed to live with your family on an ongoing basis during that time unless you need to care for a sick relative.

After 5 years you'll have more choice about how and where you live but there are rules to observe that make it difficult, like not sleeping under the same roof as women etc.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:07 pm

Goofaholix wrote:There is no such thing as a "Home Bhikkhu" in the way you describe it.

New Bhikkhus are supposed to live under dependance of their teacher for the first 5 years and I think it's pretty unlikely you'll be allowed to live with your family on an ongoing basis during that time unless you need to care for a sick relative.

After 5 years you'll have more choice about how and where you live but there are rules to observe that make it difficult, like not sleeping under the same roof as women etc.


It's true.

But by Home Bhikkhu i mean someone who "take on his own" a maximum possibles precepts, 50, 100 or more. He is not ordained, and not determinate him self like a Bhikkhu, but he live like a bhikkhu, the most simple life that it's possible... Somethink like that.
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:35 pm

DAWN wrote:But by Home Bhikkhu i mean someone who "take on his own" a maximum possibles precepts, 50, 100 or more. He is not ordained, and not determinate him self like a Bhikkhu, but he live like a bhikkhu, the most simple life that it's possible... Somethink like that.


In such a situation I think you are better off making the most of opportunities for meditation practice, study etc rather than creating an extra burdon for yourself and the people you live with by trying to observe renunciate precepts that weren't designed for householders.

Better to choose the practises that you can easily maintain rather than taking on too much and giving up, you are running a marathon not a sprint.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:43 pm

Firstly your parents have to agree. although I don't think it invalidates the ordination it isn't a honest start (assuming you know they are not in agreement). it is best to ask them, talk with them, and this way both you and your mother can come to understand each others points of view. Don't talk to them from some high minded dhamma, just as a son to their parents.

it is best not to call it a home Bhikkhu as it is not a bhikkhu. there are other forms of renunciant in buddhism who are not Bhikkhus and do not call themselves Bhikkhus. they are what they are Ardent followers of the Dhamma, nothing more or less, and taking on bhikkhu precepts does not change anything.

There are duties the world demands of us, and although the homeless life is conductive, it is not the best fit for some people for a variety of reasons. do remember that it is not the form you live that is important but how you live that is important.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:54 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
DAWN wrote:But by Home Bhikkhu i mean someone who "take on his own" a maximum possibles precepts, 50, 100 or more. He is not ordained, and not determinate him self like a Bhikkhu, but he live like a bhikkhu, the most simple life that it's possible... Somethink like that.


In such a situation I think you are better off making the most of opportunities for meditation practice, study etc rather than creating an extra burdon for yourself and the people you live with by trying to observe renunciate precepts that weren't designed for householders.

Better to choose the practises that you can easily maintain rather than taking on too much and giving up, you are running a marathon not a sprint.


By leading a most simple life possible, we helps to our mind to be more established in present moment, and less in future or past, and when the mind is established in the present moment there is not distance there is not-distance.

But actualy i think that this topic was unnecessary, because i have alrady take the descision, and i think my mother cryes because she know it... anyway, thanks you all, i wanted to hear some encouragements. :roll:
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:02 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Firstly your parents have to agree. although I don't think it invalidates the ordination it isn't a honest start (assuming you know they are not in agreement). it is best to ask them, talk with them, and this way both you and your mother can come to understand each others points of view. Don't talk to them from some high minded dhamma, just as a son to their parents.

it is best not to call it a home Bhikkhu as it is not a bhikkhu. there are other forms of renunciant in buddhism who are not Bhikkhus and do not call themselves Bhikkhus. they are what they are Ardent followers of the Dhamma, nothing more or less, and taking on bhikkhu precepts does not change anything.

There are duties the world demands of us, and although the homeless life is conductive, it is not the best fit for some people for a variety of reasons. do remember that it is not the form you live that is important but how you live that is important.


She is agree, but it's not that she wish.
It's true that i shouldt call it bhikkhu, but i the topics tourns around ordonation, so i put "home bhikkhu" into ".."
It's true about the form of living, but some practitioner go forth, to homeless life, is not some gem, but more some fruit
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:12 pm

DAWN wrote:She is agree, but it's not that she wish.
It's true that i shouldt call it bhikkhu, but i the topics tourns around ordonation, so i put "home bhikkhu" into ".."
It's true about the form of living, but some practitioner go forth, to homeless life, is not some gem, but more some fruit

it is good that she agrees, but remember she can change her mind.

the issue is ordaining or not, not what type of bhikkhu, but no more need said from me on that.

the fruit comes from the practice you do, not the clothes you wear. the sangha is a jewel, a refuge, but it is more than the robes that make a sangha.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:48 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
DAWN wrote:She is agree, but it's not that she wish.
It's true that i shouldt call it bhikkhu, but i the topics tourns around ordonation, so i put "home bhikkhu" into ".."
It's true about the form of living, but some practitioner go forth, to homeless life, is not some gem, but more some fruit

it is good that she agrees, but remember she can change her mind.

the issue is ordaining or not, not what type of bhikkhu, but no more need said from me on that.

the fruit comes from the practice you do, not the clothes you wear. the sangha is a jewel, a refuge, but it is more than the robes that make a sangha.


All is true.

In France there is proverb : "L'habit ne fat pas le moine" or somethink like "The robe dont make of someone a monk".
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby santa100 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:36 am

There're a couple things to keep in mind, like whether your family is financially dependent on you at the moment, or you have old and disabled parents (or lonely old parent) who need help, or you have financial debts that haven't been cleared, or you're under 18 years of age. If you're in any of those situations, then it probably wouldn't be a good idea to ordain right away. If you're older than 18 and your family is financially stable, then you're a grown adult and you can decide whatever is best for your life. Best wishes..
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:05 am

santa100 wrote:There're a couple things to keep in mind, like whether your family is financially dependent on you at the moment, or you have old and disabled parents (or lonely old parent) who need help, or you have financial debts that haven't been cleared, or you're under 18 years of age. If you're in any of those situations, then it probably wouldn't be a good idea to ordain right away. If you're older than 18 and your family is financially stable, then you're a grown adult and you can decide whatever is best for your life. Best wishes..

No there is no "thechnical" problem, just some affective attachement, like all mother have for his child
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby Hanzze » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:54 am

Maybe it's good to add something what was meant by "just Bhikkhu".

Thought dressed in gay and festive clothes, if he practices an even mind, if his passions are subdued, if his senses are controlled, if he is confirmed in the four Path, if he permanently observes conduct that is chaste and pure, that person is a recluse (samana), he is an ariya (brahmana), he is a Bhikkhu.

Dhp 142
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby puppha » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:34 pm

Dear Dawn,

Just a little comment.

I don't know how old you are, but I think whatever route you choose, it is not healthy to stay with your parents.
At some point, every child must leave the parents' nest and fly for themselves. That's difficult for both the parents and the child, but it is definitely necessary.

Staying as a 'home monk' and living off your parents looks like a very unhealthy option to me and I think it will cause a lot of tension and suffering. Of course I don't know the whole story, but maybe that can give a view from a different angle...

Metta
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Re: Monastic Bhikkhu or "Home Bhikkhu"

Postby DAWN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:58 pm

puppha wrote:Dear Dawn,

Just a little comment.

I don't know how old you are, but I think whatever route you choose, it is not healthy to stay with your parents.
At some point, every child must leave the parents' nest and fly for themselves. That's difficult for both the parents and the child, but it is definitely necessary.

Staying as a 'home monk' and living off your parents looks like a very unhealthy option to me and I think it will cause a lot of tension and suffering. Of course I don't know the whole story, but maybe that can give a view from a different angle...

Metta


Iam agree with you.
I will try to explain it to my family.
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