Tudong a special practice?

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Hanzze
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Tudong a special practice?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:37 pm

Often the practice as it is mainly found in the suttas, if contrary to some permitions found in the Pattimokkha, is called Tudong practice.

Is it really like this, or is it just a later addition? Maybe just a kind of "We/you are doing it well as well" conditioned borderline to get not to much in conflict. Is it really good to make such a border if there was not such intention?

(I wanted to add/ review a stanza which declears how to handle or how to solve problems, if "rules" are conflicting each other, but I could not find it. As it might be good for the question, it would be maybe great if somebody like to provide it here.)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Tudong a special practice?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:14 pm

The Thai word “Tudong” derives from the Pāli “dhutaṅga.

I only found forms of the word dhutaṅga in the Parivāra, Milindapañha, and as a variant reading for “dhutavāda” in the Aṅguttaranikāya, Book of Ones:

Dhutavādānaṃ [dhutaṅgadharānaṃ (katthaci)] yadidaṃ mahākassapo.

Mahākassapa was singled out as the most eminent in the ascetic practices — he wore the rag robes discarded by the Buddha throughout the rest of his life.

Devadatta requested that certain ascetic practices (Forestd-dwelling) be made compulsory for all bhikkhus. The Buddha said no, that it was an optional practice.

That is how it is for all of the ascetic practices which are detailed in the Parivāra (the sixth Vinaya book), and the Visuddhimagga. There are thirteen ascetic practices: e.g. eating only food collected on alms-round, not accepting an invitation to eat in a house, etc.

So, although the usage of the term “dhutaṅga” may be a later development, the practices were clearly in vogue during the Buddha's time. Cakkhupāla went blind after fulfilling the Sitter's practice throughout the Rains, for example.
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Re: Tudong a special practice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:47 am

Thanks for sharing, Venerable Pesala.

yes, I guess the Buddha was very aware of the danger of rules (they are very attractive for rulers), but also about the danger of no rules (as this is very attractive for "rebells"). That what we call dhutaṅga is, I guess, not realy limited on forest dwelling, I guess it is more about finding/seeing all kinds of crasping for sensual pleasures which might be hidden within other ways of livelihood.

I often hear the sentences "Practice in the Time of Buddha...", "People in the time of Buddha...", but it seems to be mostly an excuse or let me say, the believe that times and depending origin has changed.

I am looking forward to learn more of this issue, and comparetions of dhutaṅga and the practice recommended in the sutta pitaka.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Tudong a special practice?

Postby gavesako » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:10 pm

Some Dhutanga notes:


In MN 12 the Buddha describes his austerities as a bodhisatta, among them “not accepting meal invitations, not accepting fish or meat, not drinking rice gruel, eating only once a day … two days … seven days, wearing coarse rag robes, always standing or always squatting”. He says this was his extreme asceticism, mortifying and tormenting the body. In DN … the list also contains sleeping in the open air and accepting whatever place to stay that is offered (both standard dhutangas). In AN III,151 these practices constitute the way of “burning away” (nijjhāma), but the middle way is the 4 satipatthana. In MN 45 the ascetic practice is described as “the way of undertaking things that is both painful in the present as well as resulting in future suffering.”

In DN 25 the Buddha points out various imperfections of extreme asceticism:
“he elevates himself and disparages others… he becomes intoxicated with conceit, infatuated and heedless… he practises a certain austerity for the sake of gains, honours and fame, thinking: ‘Kings, ministers, nobles, brahmins, householders, religious teachers will honour me!’ … he sees another recluse or brahmin being patronized, honoured, respected and worshipped by families, and he thinks: ‘They are patronizing that fellow living in luxury, but they do not patronize me who lives a rough life!’ Thus he is envious and jealous… he sits in a prominent position… he goes about ostentatiously among the families, as if to say: ‘Look at my asceticism!’ … he is angry and ill-tempered, mean and spiteful, envious and jealous, crafty and deceitful, obstinate and proud, with evil desires and under their sway, holding wrong views and given to extreme opinions, stuck in worldliness and firmly holding on to it…”

In MN 113 the Buddha describes the character of a “true man” (sappurisa) who is free of various kinds of conceit and identification: “An untrue man who is learned … who is expert in the Discipline … who is a preacher of the Dhamma … who is a forest-dweller … who is a refuse-rag wearer … an almsfood eater … a tree-root dweller … an open-air dweller … a continual sitter … an any-bed user … a one-session eater considers thus: ‘I am a one-session eater, but these other monks are not one-session eaters.’ So he elevates himself and disparages others because of his being a one-session eater. This too is the character of an untrue man. But a true man considers thus: ‘It is not because of being a one-session eater that states of greed, hatred or delusion are destroyed. Even though someone may not be a one-session eater, yet if he has entered upon the way that accords with the Dhamma, entered upon the proper way, and conducts himself according to the Dhamma, he should be honoured for that, he should be praised for that.’ So, putting the practice of the way first, he neither elevates himself nor disparages others because of his being a one-session eater. This too is the character of a true man.”

In MN 77 the Buddha is describing the qualities because of which his disciples honour him, respect him, and live in dependence on him. The wanderer Udāyin first suggests that it is because the Buddha 1. eats little, 2. is content with any kind of robe, 3. is content with any kind of almsfood, 4. is content with any kind of resting place, 5. lives in seclusion. The Buddha replies that if that was the case, then those disciples of his who are far stricter in these practices should not really respect him. Among them are “refuse-rag wearers, wearers of coarse robes who collect rags from the charnel ground or rubbish heaps … almsfood eaters who go on uninterrupted almsround from house to house, who delight in gathering food, and having entered among the houses they will not consent (to a meal) even when invited to sit down …tree-root and open-air dwellers who do not use a roof for eight months … forest-dwellers who live withdrawn in remote jungle-thicket resting places and return to the midst of the Sangha once each half-month for the recitation of the Pātimokkha.” Instead of that, says the Buddha, his disciples respect and honour him for his 1. higher virtue, 2. excellent knowledge and vision, 3. higher wisdom, 4. the ability to explain the four noble truths, 5. the skill in proclaiming the path of practice leading to liberation.


In MN 69 we read about a monk called Gulissāni, a “forest-dweller of lax behaviour who had come on a visit to stay in the midst of the Sangha for some business or other.” The scene is in the Bamboo Grove at Rājagaha where Sāriputta and Moggallāna are instructing the community of monks. Sāriputta addresses the group, taking Gulissāni as an example of bad behaviour. Among other things he mentions that when a forest-dwelling monk comes to the Sangha and is living in the Sangha, 1. he should be respectful and deferential towards his companions in the holy life, 2. he should be skilled in using seats so that he does not encroach upon elder monks and does not deny seats to new monks, 3. he should not be haughty and personally vain, 4. he should not be rough-tongued and loose-spoken, 5. he should be easy to correct and should associate with good friends. Otherwise people will say of him: “What has this venerable forest-dweller gained by his dwelling alone in the forest, doing as he likes, since he does not even know what pertains to good behaviour?” Afterwards Moggallāna makes the point that these things apply generally to all monks, town-dwellers as well as forest-dwellers.

Cf. Bakkula Sutta

In MN 5 Sāriputta and Moggallāna were staying with a group of monks at Jeta’s Grove in Sāvatthi. They were discussing the necessity of recognizing one’s internal blemishes, which are described as various kinds of conceit that can manifest in the monastic community, such as wanting to be the leader, the teacher, the first one in line. When a monk does not get what he wants, he becomes angry and bitter because of that: this is called having evil unwholesome wishes. If a certain monk has this kind of blemish in him, then “even though he may be a forest dweller, living in remote abodes, an almsfood eater, a house-to-house seeker, a refuse-rag wearer, a wearer of rough robes, still his friends in the holy life do not honour, respect, revere, and venerate him.” On the other hand, if a certain monk is free from such blemish, then “even though he may be a village dweller, accepting meal invitations, wearing robes given by householders, yet his friends in the holy life honour, respect, revere, and venerate him.”

According to MN 4, “remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest are hard to endure, seclusion is hard to practise, and it is hard to enjoy solitude.” One could even go mad if one lacks concentration. Before his Awakening, the Buddha reflected that “unwholesome fear and dread” arise in such situations because of 1. unpurified bodily, verbal, or mental conduct, 2. unpurified livelihood, 3. covetousness and lust, 4. ill will and intentions of hate, 5. sloth and torpor, 6. restless and unpeaceful mind, 7. uncertainty and doubt, 8. self-praise and disparagement of others, 9. alarm and terror, 10. desire for gain, honour and renown, 11. laziness and lack of energy, 12. not being mindful and fully aware, 13. being unconcentrated and scattered, 14. being devoid of wisdom, a driveller. While some recluses and brahmins develop distorted perceptions regarding day and night (exchanging one for the other), the Buddha simply perceives them as they are, being free of delusion. At the end of the discourse the Buddha explains why he still resorts to remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest, even though his mind is already free of defilements: “It is because I see two benefits: a pleasant abiding for myself here and now, and I have compassion for future generations.”

In MN 32 the scene is the Gosinga Sāla-tree Wood where several leading disciples of the Buddha have gathered and exchange their views of the ideal kind of monk. Ānanda for instance praises great learning, Anuruddha the mastery of the divine eye, and Mahā Kassapa the life of forest dwelling, almsfood eating, refuse-rag wearing, triple-robe wearing, being one of few wishes, who is content, secluded, and aloof from society. Then the Buddha reviews their individual responses and says that they have all spoken well, each in his own way, because that is the way they have themselves practised.
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DAWN
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Re: Tudong a special practice?

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:04 pm

Thank you Bhante. :namaste:
It's very precious.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Hanzze
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Re: Tudong a special practice?

Postby Hanzze » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:32 am

gavesako wrote:Some Dhutanga notes:


In MN 12 the Buddha describes his austerities as a bodhisatta, among them “not accepting meal invitations, not accepting fish or meat, not drinking rice gruel, eating only once a day … two days … seven days, wearing coarse rag robes, always standing or always squatting”. He says this was his extreme asceticism, mortifying and tormenting the body. In DN … the list also contains sleeping in the open air and accepting whatever place to stay that is offered (both standard dhutangas). In AN III,151 these practices constitute the way of “burning away” (nijjhāma), but the middle way is the 4 satipatthana. In MN 45 the ascetic practice is described as “the way of undertaking things that is both painful in the present as well as resulting in future suffering.”

In DN 25 the Buddha points out various imperfections of extreme asceticism:
“he elevates himself and disparages others… he becomes intoxicated with conceit, infatuated and heedless… he practises a certain austerity for the sake of gains, honours and fame, thinking: ‘Kings, ministers, nobles, brahmins, householders, religious teachers will honour me!’ … he sees another recluse or brahmin being patronized, honoured, respected and worshipped by families, and he thinks: ‘They are patronizing that fellow living in luxury, but they do not patronize me who lives a rough life!’ Thus he is envious and jealous… he sits in a prominent position… he goes about ostentatiously among the families, as if to say: ‘Look at my asceticism!’ … he is angry and ill-tempered, mean and spiteful, envious and jealous, crafty and deceitful, obstinate and proud, with evil desires and under their sway, holding wrong views and given to extreme opinions, stuck in worldliness and firmly holding on to it…”

In MN 113 the Buddha describes the character of a “true man” (sappurisa) who is free of various kinds of conceit and identification: “An untrue man who is learned … who is expert in the Discipline … who is a preacher of the Dhamma … who is a forest-dweller … who is a refuse-rag wearer … an almsfood eater … a tree-root dweller … an open-air dweller … a continual sitter … an any-bed user … a one-session eater considers thus: ‘I am a one-session eater, but these other monks are not one-session eaters.’ So he elevates himself and disparages others because of his being a one-session eater. This too is the character of an untrue man. But a true man considers thus: ‘It is not because of being a one-session eater that states of greed, hatred or delusion are destroyed. Even though someone may not be a one-session eater, yet if he has entered upon the way that accords with the Dhamma, entered upon the proper way, and conducts himself according to the Dhamma, he should be honoured for that, he should be praised for that.’ So, putting the practice of the way first, he neither elevates himself nor disparages others because of his being a one-session eater. This too is the character of a true man.”

In MN 77 the Buddha is describing the qualities because of which his disciples honour him, respect him, and live in dependence on him. The wanderer Udāyin first suggests that it is because the Buddha 1. eats little, 2. is content with any kind of robe, 3. is content with any kind of almsfood, 4. is content with any kind of resting place, 5. lives in seclusion. The Buddha replies that if that was the case, then those disciples of his who are far stricter in these practices should not really respect him. Among them are “refuse-rag wearers, wearers of coarse robes who collect rags from the charnel ground or rubbish heaps … almsfood eaters who go on uninterrupted almsround from house to house, who delight in gathering food, and having entered among the houses they will not consent (to a meal) even when invited to sit down …tree-root and open-air dwellers who do not use a roof for eight months … forest-dwellers who live withdrawn in remote jungle-thicket resting places and return to the midst of the Sangha once each half-month for the recitation of the Pātimokkha.” Instead of that, says the Buddha, his disciples respect and honour him for his 1. higher virtue, 2. excellent knowledge and vision, 3. higher wisdom, 4. the ability to explain the four noble truths, 5. the skill in proclaiming the path of practice leading to liberation.


In MN 69 we read about a monk called Gulissāni, a “forest-dweller of lax behaviour who had come on a visit to stay in the midst of the Sangha for some business or other.” The scene is in the Bamboo Grove at Rājagaha where Sāriputta and Moggallāna are instructing the community of monks. Sāriputta addresses the group, taking Gulissāni as an example of bad behaviour. Among other things he mentions that when a forest-dwelling monk comes to the Sangha and is living in the Sangha, 1. he should be respectful and deferential towards his companions in the holy life, 2. he should be skilled in using seats so that he does not encroach upon elder monks and does not deny seats to new monks, 3. he should not be haughty and personally vain, 4. he should not be rough-tongued and loose-spoken, 5. he should be easy to correct and should associate with good friends. Otherwise people will say of him: “What has this venerable forest-dweller gained by his dwelling alone in the forest, doing as he likes, since he does not even know what pertains to good behaviour?” Afterwards Moggallāna makes the point that these things apply generally to all monks, town-dwellers as well as forest-dwellers.

Cf. Bakkula Sutta

In MN 5 Sāriputta and Moggallāna were staying with a group of monks at Jeta’s Grove in Sāvatthi. They were discussing the necessity of recognizing one’s internal blemishes, which are described as various kinds of conceit that can manifest in the monastic community, such as wanting to be the leader, the teacher, the first one in line. When a monk does not get what he wants, he becomes angry and bitter because of that: this is called having evil unwholesome wishes. If a certain monk has this kind of blemish in him, then “even though he may be a forest dweller, living in remote abodes, an almsfood eater, a house-to-house seeker, a refuse-rag wearer, a wearer of rough robes, still his friends in the holy life do not honour, respect, revere, and venerate him.” On the other hand, if a certain monk is free from such blemish, then “even though he may be a village dweller, accepting meal invitations, wearing robes given by householders, yet his friends in the holy life honour, respect, revere, and venerate him.”

According to MN 4, “remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest are hard to endure, seclusion is hard to practise, and it is hard to enjoy solitude.” One could even go mad if one lacks concentration. Before his Awakening, the Buddha reflected that “unwholesome fear and dread” arise in such situations because of 1. unpurified bodily, verbal, or mental conduct, 2. unpurified livelihood, 3. covetousness and lust, 4. ill will and intentions of hate, 5. sloth and torpor, 6. restless and unpeaceful mind, 7. uncertainty and doubt, 8. self-praise and disparagement of others, 9. alarm and terror, 10. desire for gain, honour and renown, 11. laziness and lack of energy, 12. not being mindful and fully aware, 13. being unconcentrated and scattered, 14. being devoid of wisdom, a driveller. While some recluses and brahmins develop distorted perceptions regarding day and night (exchanging one for the other), the Buddha simply perceives them as they are, being free of delusion. At the end of the discourse the Buddha explains why he still resorts to remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest, even though his mind is already free of defilements: “It is because I see two benefits: a pleasant abiding for myself here and now, and I have compassion for future generations.”

In MN 32 the scene is the Gosinga Sāla-tree Wood where several leading disciples of the Buddha have gathered and exchange their views of the ideal kind of monk. Ānanda for instance praises great learning, Anuruddha the mastery of the divine eye, and Mahā Kassapa the life of forest dwelling, almsfood eating, refuse-rag wearing, triple-robe wearing, being one of few wishes, who is content, secluded, and aloof from society. Then the Buddha reviews their individual responses and says that they have all spoken well, each in his own way, because that is the way they have themselves practised.


That' what I meant. There are always planty of arguments in one direction, but I guess it was a time where have been a lot of extreme ascetic and I guess we are more in a time of the other extreme.
Thanks for sharing these, Ven. Gavesako. I guess many of those are the views every Monk seems to have learned before any thing else as if all already had the experiance of what is to less, painful and contraproductive for the practice.

Would it be agreeable that criticised practices like mentioned above or mixed with intentions like above are not what is meant by Dhutanga (let me call it here "the middle path")

Let me add some sentence regarding the motivation (which might refer to the told in the suttas above):

For the practice of dhutaṅgas, there do exist several kinds of motivations. A few can adopt one of them out of a bad purpose, in the aim of stirring up admiration around themselves, whereas others adopt one of these practices out of a genuine purpose, in order to cure themselves from kilesās, with the same state of mind into which one takes a medicine. Here are the five kinds of motivation that we can distinguish among those who adopt one or more dhutaṅgas:

1) Out of complete ignorance, without even knowing their advantages: after having merely heard the practitioners of the dhutaṅgas are of good renown, for being able to say " me, I practice the dhutaṅgas", etc.

2) For benefitting with the advantages feeding up greed, such as: for receiving a lot of gifts, for being well considered by others, for causing a great veneration to arise from others, for attracting disciples to oneself, etc.

3) Out of madness, out of complete ignorance, without being in quest for anything whatsoever.

4) Because Buddha and ariyās praise such practices.

5) For benefitting with healthy advantages, such as: the capacity to be contented with very little, weakness inherent to greed, easiness to obtain what is needed, tranquillity, detachment, etc.

Buddha disapproved the first three motivations, he only approved the last two. An individual may then adopt one or several dhutaṅgas only if he is motivated according to the fourth or fifth among these five kinds of motivations. However, a dhutaṅga is of much higher benefit if it is adopted according to the fifth motivation instead of the fourth.


One most importand intention which is not listed here is of cause compassion, but I guess it was not that much pointed out, as one easy tends to selfsacrifying out of compassion and ordinary people would not easy understand that kind of compassion.

In opposite to the "warnings" told in MN 5 above, I need to remember Yasa Sutta: Honor for example.

One additional thought is, that we need to be aware that settled Monks of cause would have more influence on that what appears literary while naturally the vagrant whould not have that much influence on what is broadly taught.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_


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