Dream World v Real World!

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:17 pm

"if".....well, that would mean someone is jumping to conclusions.....is it not?

Anyway, as mentioned before, it really doesn't matter.....where ever it comes from, it may be relevant or has interesting views on the subject.
We are all trying to escape so we can be free, it is the purpose that is more important.

We are all born not knowing and it can be learned.
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby reflection » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:35 pm

When you are not mindful you are almost as if sleeping - everything is foggy and hazy. Most people live like that their entire life. That's the important 'dreaming' we have to worry about if you ask me. Because when mindfulness is strong, perception is stronger, colors are much brighter, sounds are sharper. A simple leaf can be like an entire world, a candle like a solar system. Everything is more clear and vibrant and beautiful - it's all like High Definition, most notably the mind, which is also very gentle and easy to keep silent and in control - and is thus in a good state to do contemplation. Too bad the busy environment most of us live in makes it very, very difficult to attain and keep such a state of awareness. But experience it once or twice and you know this is what meditation should lead to - and what being aware is all about. And for the first time in your life you are not 'dreaming'.

Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.

Clearly understanding this excellence of heedfulness, the wise exult therein and enjoy the resort of the Noble Ones.
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:50 pm

Back to the statement:
The statement needs to be separated into two parts for reasons.
Part 1: "Have you ever had a dream that it was so real, what if you were never to wake up from that dream."
We can now analysis this more closely now.

Part 2: "How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real word?"
One cannot answer this part as this is a question. Part 1 must be known first. We will come back to this later.

Santa100 has kindly provided us with a link in a recent post: MN 106.
So what is Part 1 telling us? What is the hidden message? We are talking about dreams, when one is in a dream, it feels real.....imagine this in your mind. It says what if you were never to wake up.....if one does not wake up, one will always be in a dream.....yes! agree?

Relate the above with MN 106 and what do we have?.....anyone?.....what is it telling you now?
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:54 pm

James the Giant wrote:
equilibrium wrote:It really does not matter where the sources comes from, what is more important is what you have read and what it means to you.

Well, sorry to be a fundamentalist, but if "what it means to you" is that the Hindu view of maya is true... well, sorry, that's simply wrong.

Relax, James :smile:
Whatever its source, Mr Man's quote was beautifully apt to the discussion and (in itself) not at odds with the dhamma. And no-one, so far as I can see, has even claimed that it was 'true'. :shrug:

:namaste:
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby James the Giant » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:25 am

equilibrium wrote:"if".....well, that would mean someone is jumping to conclusions.....is it not?

Anyway, as mentioned before, it really doesn't matter.....where ever it comes from, it may be relevant or has interesting views on the subject.
We are all trying to escape so we can be free, it is the purpose that is more important.

We are all born not knowing and it can be learned.

Okay, you are right. Sorry if I was combative.
And welcome to Dhamma Wheel!
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby twelph » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:03 am

I've had quite a bit of luck in inducing lucid dreams where I gain complete control of myself and my surroundings for the past 5 years or so. What's really interesting is the times I remember to sit down and meditate. I haven't reached any deep state of concentration yet, as it's a little harder to stay concentrated when you have infinite possibilities to consider. I will keep testing it though, it would be nice to wake up and already have a deep sense of relaxation. Anyone else have experience with meditating while dreaming?
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:55 am

twelph wrote:Anyone else have experience with meditating while dreaming?

Can't say that I remember doing that, but I can remember dreaming doing lots of other things and every time I woke up I found that the things hadn't actually been done.
:thinking:

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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:28 pm

reflection wrote:When you are not mindful you are almost as if sleeping - everything is foggy and hazy. Most people live like that their entire life. That's the important 'dreaming' we have to worry about if you ask me. Because when mindfulness is strong, perception is stronger, colors are much brighter, sounds are sharper. A simple leaf can be like an entire world, a candle like a solar system. Everything is more clear and vibrant and beautiful - it's all like High Definition, most notably the mind, which is also very gentle and easy to keep silent and in control - and is thus in a good state to do contemplation. Too bad the busy environment most of us live in makes it very, very difficult to attain and keep such a state of awareness. But experience it once or twice and you know this is what meditation should lead to - and what being aware is all about. And for the first time in your life you are not 'dreaming'.

Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.

Clearly understanding this excellence of heedfulness, the wise exult therein and enjoy the resort of the Noble Ones.

Very good relection.....this is exactly what we are trying to achieve.....awareness and mindfullness.....no one can do it for you.....it must be done by the self.
The quotation you provided is at the end of the path.....this is where we all want to be....to be free.

Notice heedfulness leads to "Deathless".
Notice heedful "die not".

This is what we all want to get to, the target at least.....Since you have provided, we should take these as our clues to this thread so to help human beings to realize for themselves.

When one arrives at this level.....everything becomes crystal clear.

Now add these clues to the statement and think about it.......for yourself...........where does it fit into and why?
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:57 pm

James the Giant wrote:
equilibrium wrote:"if".....well, that would mean someone is jumping to conclusions.....is it not?

Anyway, as mentioned before, it really doesn't matter.....where ever it comes from, it may be relevant or has interesting views on the subject.
We are all trying to escape so we can be free, it is the purpose that is more important.

We are all born not knowing and it can be learned.

Okay, you are right. Sorry if I was combative.
And welcome to Dhamma Wheel!

Don't worry about it, they are just words.....they don't really exist.....there is nothing there.

It is words like he/she, blond/bluenette, black/white, either he/she comes from china, the US, europe or anywhere, either he is tall or short, clever or stupid, happy or sad.....they are all the same.....yes, thats right.....they are all human beings.

It is therefore very important for one to SEE clearly.....these words are just a words, it is only a human construct so that we can all communicate to each other.....they are created by the mind and for the mind, don't be bounded by them.....there is meaning beyond the words.....don't let the words to become an obstruction.

Hence there is a saying when the cup is full of water, it cannot take anymore!.....one must empty it first.
This is the same meaning in the film Matrix where Morpheus said to Neo before jumping between buildings "You have to let it all go, Neo. Fear, doubt and disbelief. Free your mind"

It is telling one to empty the mind of pre-conceived ideas......throw them all away!
It is the mind we want to set FREE!....and that is exactly what Buddhism is trying to do.
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:06 pm

It is time for more clues.
Yawares has provided a very interesting topic under the following link:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=13792

Another one is SN 35.115

Another clue from the film for you: When one is watching the film, one takes the natural position of Neo as "the One".....what this film is doing is to communicate with the viewer, ie. this is you, the person watching the film.....it is communicating to you through a film, through pictures, images so they can be feed through your eyes....and ears by sounds.....so it is directed to you!

What is important here is in the film, it shows that Neo is "plugged in".....now this is a VERY important point to consider.....What is it telling you, what is the meaning of this.....being plugged in?.....why?.....time to do some thinking......think about what is real and what is not real?

Consider all clues to date.....and the original statement........what are your thoughts now?
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:02 pm

Scietifics said that dream is like difragmentation of memory.

It means that events of the day is reorganised in memory. This triage activity create some electric activity, and this electric activity is recognised by the consciousness and show us all kind of images of our life who seems fluently comes from one to enother... :juggling: :zzz:

So dream is just a dream.
The is no any kind of divine messages about truth, or some kind of future knowing etc.
But anywere, if a dream becomes true, it's not because the dream was true, but is beacause our mind BELIEAVE that it's true, and when our mind is sure about some dhamma, this dhamma, this fnomena becomes "true", comes to dreamer in "real" life.

Somebody said somethink like that:
We must be carefull baut our dreams, them can become true.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby Magoo » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:52 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Magoo wrote:
ground wrote: When there is this then that will arise.
:sage:


Just to add to this and something that I have only just read that Ajahn Sumedho wrote and is very profound and that is that the above should read:

"When there is this, then this will arise." (rather than this and that) This difference is subtle but significant in my view.

With MeggaMetta
Eamonn


Hi,

could you give me the source for that, please?

Thanks.


I am reading Ajahn Sumedho's "Sound of Silence" and the quote is from within the book. Thats as much as I can offer at this point. Sorry, but I like it very much. It takes away opposites as the cause and effect is always continuous. So this happens and then this happens and then this happens and so on. I find if I say this and that, the 'that' makes it sound like the end, when infact the 'that" is the 'this' of the next phenomenon. Hard to explain but makes sense to me. Subtle but profound I think.

With MegaMetta
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:18 am

DAWN wrote:So dream is just a dream.
The is no any kind of divine messages about truth, or some kind of future knowing etc.

emmm....so are you saying that the teaching of buddhism from Shakyamuni is false?.....and how do you know that? is this not a simple thought in ones mind? jumping to conclusions? is this not ignorance? and is there no knowing?....but the above appears that you do know?.....wow!..........then why are you here?.....searching for what?.....maybe one should try and understand oneself first!.....remember the sign above the door when Neo entered the room of the Oracle, it means "Know myself".......remember.....very relevant don't you think?

The question is an analogy and it must be understood.....it should not be taken literally.
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby DAWN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:00 pm

equilibrium wrote:then why are you here?.....


:smile:
I'am waiting

PS I'am sorry if i make you anger, i dont have this kind of motivation. If i ever sayng somethink heretical, be compationate of me and my ignorance. We cant feel anger of an animal, cause he is ignorant, but we can feel compassionate of him.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:53 pm

What are you waiting for? something interesting I hope?
We are all humans and we will encounter obstructions in this very life. We must be determined to break through these obstructions and motivations are the key.
Don't worry about feelings, they are just words, created by the mind, all just imaginations, there is nothing there.....don't be bounded by words.
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:04 pm

Lets talk about dreams and consciousness as our next clue.....some very simply questions:
1. When you are dreaming, are you aware that you are dreaming?
2. when you are sleeping, are you aware that you are asleep?
3. When you die and get cremation, do you think you will be aware of the pain from the intense heat? if not, why not?
4. What is the difference between someone who is asleep and dead?

Can you see the differences?.....and how does consciousness relate to all this?
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby DAWN » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:25 am

equilibrium wrote:What are you waiting for? something interesting I hope?
We are all humans and we will encounter obstructions in this very life. We must be determined to break through these obstructions and motivations are the key.
Don't worry about feelings, they are just words, created by the mind, all just imaginations, there is nothing there.....don't be bounded by words.


I wainting for the death of my body, like all leaving being. So i waiting it here :roll:

"All is just imagination" - it's true. Dreams to.

1. When you are dreaming, are you aware that you are dreaming?

Not every time

2. when you are sleeping, are you aware that you are asleep?

Not everytime

3. When you die and get cremation, do you think you will be aware of the pain from the intense heat? if not, why not?

No, because brain will be death, there is no more contact between consciousness and body. No six base sense, no contact.

4. What is the difference between someone who is asleep and dead?

Brain. Asleep or death.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby pegembara » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:21 am

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby equilibrium » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:49 pm

Thank you for your responses DAWN.
emm.....waiting for death of my body?.....well, when we get to the end of this thread, hopefully you will realize that there is no such a thing as death.

1. When we are dreaming, we are not usually aware of that we are actually in a dream. We only know that we have been dreaming when we actually wake up and realized that we had been dreaming.....this is exactly what the original statement intention is.

2. When one is sleeping, deeply in asleep, one will not realize that he is actually sleeping, he is not aware he is sleeping and its surroundings.

3. When one dies and get cremated, one will not be able to feel the intense heat.....no consciousness.

4. The difference between someone who is asleep and dead is alive and dead and that both are not conscious.

Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)

So far, what has been presented are those related towards the "Dream World". This is the last clue.....the phase "The Awaken One" are on many Suttras.....this is at the end of the path.....why do you think this is on the suttras and what is the meaning of this in relation to the statement.....is it coincidence? why do they call it the awakened one?

Anyone wishes to add more arguments towards the "Dream World"......please feel free.

Soon will be the arguments for the "Real World".....well, that one is easy is it not?.....anyone?
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Postby kirk5a » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:19 pm

equilibrium wrote:Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)

I will be looking forward to how you explain the following, with regard to what you say above:

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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