Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:01 am

daverupa wrote:
DAWN wrote:We must develop that is unconditioned
All that have condition, must be rejected


The eightfold path is conditioned, so that's not quite right.


Eightfold path have not conditioning as aim
Eightfold path have inconditioning as aim

Eightfold path intying a knot, he don't tying a knot
Eightfold path dont brings the complicate(conditioned) life, he bring the simple(inconditioned) life
Last edited by DAWN on Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:23 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:
Hanzze wrote:However, do you think that it aids to Enlightenment?


They enhance cognition


The Buddha is NOT-COGNITION.

If we take a black leaf and spill on it many colors, we will not see any color
But if we take a clear leaf and spill on it many colors, we will see all this colors

Buddha's mind is clean of knowlege, and this proprety of all knowledge is his only skill, his only knowlege.
To understand a fenomene here and now, he dont need to study this fenomena, he dont need a knowlege, he just need to dunk his clear mind into dhamma, and then he see, like on clear leaf, what colors is on it.

Why is like that? Because we have a consciousness of somethink, only when there is difference, like clear of colors leaf can show all colors, like a silience can show a noize, like a night can show a day, like a cold can show the warm, like a no-cognition can show a cognition, like a uncinditioned can show the conditioned§ like a death can show a life ...

We cant taste a cup of tea that someone offer to us, if our cup of tea is full.
To taste all tea here and now we have to clean our cup of tea
To understand all dhammas here and now we have clean or mind of all dhammas

Once Socrate were asked, what is your knowledge? And Socrate respond that his only knowledge is that he have no any knowlege.

So if some serious meditator want to know all dhammas, he must clean his mind, make the leaf clean.

So any drugs is not good method for not good aim.
Last edited by DAWN on Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:25 am

He of Cryptic Brevity wrote:Wrong.


Could you expand on that? The unconditioned is by definition not dependent on any conditioned thing or phenomena.
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby Caraka » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:13 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:
Caraka wrote:
If such a drug existed, I think it's not a violation of the 5th precept, since the full phrase includes "which lead to carelessness".


If such a drug existed is idle speculations.

The fifth precept is for me a translation trying to make the Buddhas teaching about moral and ethic understandable in English. What if it really meant 'smacking your feet off the fundament that your virtue is buildt upon' ?

Anything that can lead one onto unwholesome thoughts or actions is not good, I hope all can agree about that. So for me the question is not what Pharmacological Aids might lead to, or not. It is all about what can lead me onto more wholesome thoughts and actions. Alcohol? Drugs? Pharmacological Aids? I don't think so.


Except for some of the amphetamines listed as Nootropics (and even these can conceivably be used without risk of ‘heedlessness’), I don’t see how any of these fail the caution of sīla.


Classic. Claiming amphetamines (Nootropics) can be used without risk is like looking at the sunset going down over the trees while the birds are singing, and saying this is so beautiful it must indeed be the work of God. Taking no account for evolution (facts).

And your only argument is saying Except? I'm curious about what facts you build such a statement upon..
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby daverupa » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:35 pm

DAWN wrote:...


“Ariyo panāyye, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato udāhu asaṅkhato”ti?
“Is the Eightfold Path conditioned or is it unconditioned?”

“Ariyo kho, āvuso Visākha, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato”ti.
“Friend Visākha, the Eightfold Path is conditioned.”

MN 44
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:47 pm

daverupa wrote:
DAWN wrote:...


“Ariyo panāyye, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato udāhu asaṅkhato”ti?
“Is the Eightfold Path conditioned or is it unconditioned?”

“Ariyo kho, āvuso Visākha, aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhato”ti.
“Friend Visākha, the Eightfold Path is conditioned.”

MN 44


Yes, it's sure.

Eightfold Path is used to discover the truth, but the truth is unconditioned, truth have not any condition.
So Eightfold Path is the condition, is the Path, to discover unconditional.
So being on Eightfold Path, we must seek for that is unconditioned, and reject that is conditioned.
We must direct our mind to the Non-conditional.
The word 'direct', means Eightfold Path.
Eightfold Path, is the Path to liberation, liberty is not conditioned, so we must develop the liberty and reject the chain

That's why i said that unconditioned must be develop and conditioned reject.

And as I know, drugs and medicaments is not into Eightfold Path.
Ajahn Sumedho onece said, when a bhikkhu have not any medicament, he alrady have urine.
And if bhikkhu, being the exemple for other buddhists, leading a simple, an unconditioned life, don't have to take any medicament for enlightement, why? Because the Dhamma is somethink very simple, is the ULTIME simplicity.
So i consider that we must rejet all that is complicate, conditioned, not simple, not free, not true..

If is an heretical point of wiev, reject it.
With regards :meditate:
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:32 pm

DAWN wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
Hanzze wrote:However, do you think that it aids to Enlightenment?


They enhance cognition


The Buddha is NOT-COGNITION. ....


:strawman:

And "Smart Drugs" mentioned in the OP are not aids to Liberation. They do augment cognition, which is the context for my reply.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:43 pm

Caraka wrote:...Classic. Claiming amphetamines (Nootropics) can be used without risk is like looking at the sunset going down over the trees while the birds are singing, and saying this is so beautiful it must indeed be the work of God. Taking no account for evolution (facts).

And your only argument is saying Except? I'm curious about what facts you build such a statement upon..


What is "classic" about it? Have you read what I have posted in this thread? The schedule of medications mentioned in the OP as "smart drugs" or Nootropics do not lead to carelessness.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:45 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:
:strawman:

And "Smart Drugs" mentioned in the OP are not aids to Liberation. They do augment cognition, which is the context for my reply.


I'am sorry, i dont understand :embarassed: What is OP ?
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby whynotme » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:55 pm

original poster
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:07 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote: :strawman:

And "Smart Drugs" mentioned in the OP are not aids to Liberation. They do augment cognition, which is the context for my reply.


Ah yes, right, I'am sorry, i was inspired
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby Caraka » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:46 pm

They do augment cognition, which is the context for my repl

I think this is still idle speculation, even if you are able to refer to well documented scientific tests. Cause tests just documents the effect and counter effects only on your body (like getting pain, dizzy etc), they will never tell if you become more ignorant or not using. So there will always be a risk of different changes together with use of such medicine.

E.g. lets say you walk past someone who reach out to you for help, and normally you will stop and help cause you are a generous person, but you don't cause your on medicine. There is no tests who will tell anything about this. And you will not know cause you won't notice.

Anything that can lead one onto unwholesome thoughts or actions is not good, I hope all can agree about that. So for me the question is not what Pharmacological Aids might lead to, or not. It is all about what can lead me onto more wholesome thoughts and actions. Alcohol? Drugs? Pharmacological Aids? I don't think so.
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby twelph » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:08 pm

heed·less  
/ˈhēdlis/
Adjective
Showing a reckless lack of care or attention: "his heedless impetuosity".


I have had experience since the age of 5 with everything mentioned in this thread and much more. Any amphetamine causes addiction, just read the numerous scientific reports that the large pharmaceuticals choose to ignore. Addiction causes heedlessness in all cases. Caffeine is a stimulant that also causes addiction, and many people become heedless when they have to go without it.

Did the Buddha state that alcohol makes everyone heedless in every situation? No, but he must have realized if it can cause such extreme actions in one person, at the very least it hinders meditation. I really think the most important thing to consider when taking any mind altering substance is the reason why you are taking it. If you have confidence in the Buddha's path, you should trust that whatever supposed benefits that these drugs might have are nothing compared to what is possible, and relying on these crutches could possibly inhibit your ability to fully realize this. So why take the chance?

Playing devil's advocate here, if someone is insistent on acquiring external help with meditation, on the subject of nootropics I would reccomend they look into drugs like piracetam and it's analogues. They are considered by the scientific community to be "safe as salt" in most cases, and are not stimulants, addictive, or scheduled in the United States.

Edit: also, jumping straight into synthetic stimulants seems asinine to me. There are plenty of natural non-stimulants such as ginseng, ginkgo biloba, and aswaganda that you should be considering first.
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby reflection » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:07 pm

I have no time to read the topic so this may have been said already, but I felt the need to say this:

When talking about concentration, the Buddha was talking about a specific kind of concentration. Not the kind of concentration one uses in everyday life, but concentration based on virtue, contentment, peace. Concentration is not really the right word to describe it because people don't always know about this distinctive type of meditative states the Buddha was talking about and mix it up with general concentration. So the concentration we try to develop is not supported by drug intake.

Same for energy. It's not just any kind of energy that's good, we have to be careful there. Cafeine for example may give energy but it is not a very stable kind; it's very wobbly. Therefor it's not particularly useful and it is certainly not the type of energy the Buddha was on about. That would be the energy more based upon joy.
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:12 pm

Caraka wrote:
They do augment cognition, which is the context for my repl

I think this is still idle speculation, even if you are able to refer to well documented scientific tests. Cause tests just documents the effect and counter effects only on your body (like getting pain, dizzy etc), they will never tell if you become more ignorant or not using. So there will always be a risk of different changes together with use of such medicine.

E.g. lets say you walk past someone who reach out to you for help, and normally you will stop and help cause you are a generous person, but you don't cause your on medicine. There is no tests who will tell anything about this. And you will not know cause you won't notice.

Anything that can lead one onto unwholesome thoughts or actions is not good, I hope all can agree about that. So for me the question is not what Pharmacological Aids might lead to, or not. It is all about what can lead me onto more wholesome thoughts and actions. Alcohol? Drugs? Pharmacological Aids? I don't think so.


Not sure what the disconnect is here, but it seems we are not having the same conversation.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:16 pm

reflection wrote:I have no time to read the topic so this may have been said already, but I felt the need to say this:

When talking about concentration, the Buddha was talking about a specific kind of concentration. Not the kind of concentration one uses in everyday life, but concentration based on virtue, contentment, peace. Concentration is not really the right word to describe it because people don't always know about this distinctive type of meditative states the Buddha was talking about and mix it up with general concentration. So the concentration we try to develop is not supported by drug intake.

Same for energy. It's not just any kind of energy that's good, we have to be careful there. Cafeine for example may give energy but it is not a very stable kind; it's very wobbly. Therefor it's not particularly useful and it is certainly not the type of energy the Buddha was on about. That would be the energy more based upon joy.


Indeed. Contemplative energy is not the same as that stimulated by a substance. This is why these supplements will not give the results of physical and mental calm conducive to contemplative work.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:34 pm

twelph wrote:
heed·less  
/ˈhēdlis/
Adjective
Showing a reckless lack of care or attention: "his heedless impetuosity".


I have had experience since the age of 5 with everything mentioned in this thread and much more. Any amphetamine causes addiction, just read the numerous scientific reports that the large pharmaceuticals choose to ignore. Addiction causes heedlessness in all cases. Caffeine is a stimulant that also causes addiction, and many people become heedless when they have to go without it. ...


I do understand the sentiment, and respect meditation teachers that insist on refraining from even caffeine (Luangpo Teean was one). But one persons addiction may well not be for another, what to say of 'heedlessness'.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:02 pm

Internet addiction, information addiction is the worst addiction that exist...
I stop all, but i cant stop internet...
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby Viscid » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:36 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:And "Smart Drugs" mentioned in the OP are not aids to Liberation.


The drugs I listed would keep you awake and make you attentive. If not being able to stay awake or an inability to pay attention is preventing someone from 'liberation,' then they'd help, but in normally healthy individuals this is not the case.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: Pharmacological Aids to Enlightenment

Postby twelph » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:41 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:
twelph wrote:
heed·less  
/ˈhēdlis/
Adjective
Showing a reckless lack of care or attention: "his heedless impetuosity".


I have had experience since the age of 5 with everything mentioned in this thread and much more. Any amphetamine causes addiction, just read the numerous scientific reports that the large pharmaceuticals choose to ignore. Addiction causes heedlessness in all cases. Caffeine is a stimulant that also causes addiction, and many people become heedless when they have to go without it. ...


I do understand the sentiment, and respect meditation teachers that insist on refraining from even caffeine (Luangpo Teean was one). But one persons addiction may well not be for another, what to say of 'heedlessness'.


Fair enough. Excluding the factors of addiction and withdrawal, do you believe that the most common side effects of caffeine would fit into the Buddha's definition of heedlessness in relation to the following sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ?

I do believe that strict moderation of certain substances would keep someone from breaking the 5th precept in some cases, but I hold firm in the belief that rather than aiding in the advancement of wholesome states, they do the opposite.
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