New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:So much for "choice-less" attention.
More accurately: So much for Ven Thanisarro's strawman version of bare-attention.


But is attention always bare without latent tendencies and other cognitive distortions underlying it?

I believe that sati is remembering the Dhamma. It is not becoming like a little child who (in ignorance) doesn't know and doesn't comment on what one observes.

Is Dhamma merely not thinking and "just be aware!" . If so, why did the Buddha teach so much?! He taught about aggregates, sense spheres, 18 elements, DO, 4NT, etc etc.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:21 am

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:So much for "choice-less" attention.
More accurately: So much for Ven Thanisarro's strawman version of bare-attention.


But is attention always bare without latent tendencies and other cognitive distortions underlying it?
Second page of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13538&start=20#p201569

I believe that sati is remembering the Dhamma. It is not becoming like a little child who (in ignorance) doesn't know and doesn't comment on what one observes.
Again, the meaning of sati, as actually used in the Pali suttas, is more than just remembering, and "bare attention" is not the strawman caricature you just painted.

And just in case you missed it:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13538&start=100#p204953
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:35 am

Not read the posts, just the last two. I guess that "bare attention" vs. "remembering" discussion is just the edge between sati and samadhi which might be not that sharp for the one and the other. Maybe we can compare it with the use of a telescope, there is work to be done by making the linses sharp as well as we need to make the eye sharp. To do so, needs to remember the last picture (panna) or to just try it different (saddha), which has to do with remember or better comparing. Of cause there is always concentration needed in between and it's how ever a wheel.

It is not becoming like a little child who (in ignorance) doesn't know and doesn't comment on what one observes.

I guess many of such situations are in fact high samadhi. Not allways children are daydreaming, so do not disturb them. Some even rememeber.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Dmytro » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:08 am

Hi Alex,

Alex123 wrote:I believe that sati is remembering the Dhamma.


Sure. As Buddha says in SN 46.3 Sīlasutta:

"Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects the dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati is aroused by the monk, on that occasion the monk develops the awakening factor of sati, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati comes to fulfillment through development in the monk."

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=0#p167808
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:11 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Alex,

Alex123 wrote:I believe that sati is remembering the Dhamma.


Sure. As Buddha says in SN 46.3 Sīlasutta:

"Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects the dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati is aroused by the monk, on that occasion the monk develops the awakening factor of sati, on that occasion the awakening factor of sati comes to fulfillment through development in the monk."

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&start=0#p167808
As if that is the only use of sati in the suttas.

What Does Mindfulness Really Mean? A Canonical Perspective by Bhikkhu Bodhi


On Some Definitions of Mindfulness by Rupert Gethin
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Dmytro » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:58 pm

tiltbillings wrote:As if that is the only use of sati in the suttas.


Yes, 'remembrance, memory' is the only use of 'sati' in the suttas.

"One remembers to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right remembrance.
One remembers to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right remembrance.
One remembers to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right remembrance.
One remembers to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right
remembrance.
One remembers to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right remembrance."

Maha-cattarisaka sutta, MN 117



Well, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi remains a pupil of Ven. Nyanaponika, who conflated 'sati' with 'bare attention', partly inspired by 'choiceless awareness' approach of Krishnamurti.



Thank you for the reference, Rupert Gethin presents a comprehensive historical review.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:18 pm

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As if that is the only use of sati in the suttas.


Yes, 'remembrance, memory' is the only use of 'sati' in the suttas.

"One remembers to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right remembrance.
One remembers to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right remembrance.
One remembers to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right remembrance.
One remembers to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right
remembrance.
One remembers to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right remembrance."

Maha-cattarisaka sutta, MN 117



Well, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi remains a pupil of Ven. Nyanaponika, who conflated 'sati' with 'bare attention', partly inspired by 'choiceless awareness' approach of Krishnamurti.
Your proof that Ven Nyanaponika was "partly inspired by 'choiceless awareness' approach of Krishnamurti?" I rather doubt it.

As to how Ven Nyanaponika understood "bare attention" is neatly spelled out buy Ven Bodhi here: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=13538&start=20#p201569

And thank you for your quotation from Wallace in the "Pali Term: Sati" thread. It neatly makes my point: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&p=205438#p205438
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Dmytro » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Your proof that Ven Nyanaponika was "partly inspired by 'choiceless awareness' approach of Krishnamurti?" I rather doubt it.


The 'choiceless awareness' was introduced by Krishnamurti in his talks:

"(Choiceless) Awareness is a state in which there is no condemnation, no justification or identification, and therefore there is understanding: in that state of passive, alert awareness there is neither the experiencer nor the experienced."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_5ho4x ... frontcover

Krishnamurti's books were popular in Srli Lanka where Ven. Nyanaponika lived:

"Godwin once said to me: 'I learned to think from K.N (Jayatillake), Ven. Nyanaponika encouraged me to read the suttas, and Krishnamurti's writings made sense of it all.'"

http://www.godwin-home-page.net/Tributes/Dhammika.htm

Ven. Nyanaponika mentions the Krishnamurti's "Choiceless Awareness" in his book on "Achtsamkeit" (Mindfulness), and describes the similarity between his approach and Krishnamurti's:

Es besteht freilich die Gefahr, daß die Eigenart dieser Methode in allzu einseitiger Perspektive verzeichnet wird, als ein extremer Pendelausschlag gegen Übungswege, welche die Konzentration auf ein einziges Objekt in den Mittelpunkt stellen. Man mag etwa meinen, daß willentliche Konzentration auf ein einziges Objekt oder gar jede methodische Übung wegen ihres angeblichen Zwangscharakters verwerflich seien und es ausreichend sei, eine nicht wählende Achtsamkeit lediglich auf das zu richten, was der Tag zuträgt. Dies ist zum Beispiel die Ansicht Krishnamurtis. Diese Einstellung findet auch Unterstützung durch eine vom Einfluß der Psychoanalyse genährte Furcht, daß jeder formende, wählende und ausschließende Eingriff in das geistige Gefüge zu Verkrampfungen, Verdrängungen und schließlich Neurosen führen mag. In all dem liegt ein berechtigter Kern, und gerade die Satipatthāna-Methode hat dem durch ihren «gewaltlosen», zwangfreien Charakter Rechnung getragen, ohne jedoch in die Extreme der vorgenannten Ansichten zu verfallen.

http://www.palikanon.com/diverses/satip ... tt_05.html

Ven.Nyanaponika writes:

"By bare attention we understand the clear and single-minded awareness of what actually happens to us and in us, at the successive moments of perception. It is called “bare” because it attends to the bare facts of a perception without reacting to them by deed, speech or mental comment."

http://www.midamericadharma.org/gangess ... lness.html

Thus the "Choiceless Awareness" migrated into Buddhist practice, and into the works of Ven. Nyanaponika's pupils, e.g. Ven. Analayo.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Dmytro » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:09 am

tiltbillings wrote:
    [b]Bhikkhu Bodhi Page15

    We should remember that sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced
    as part of an’anupassanā,’ and this word helps to bring out the role of sati.


There's evidently a key misunderstanding.

The early and reliable Satipatthana-Vibhanga clearly distinguishes 'sati' and 'anupassana':

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... iddeso.htm
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:16 am

Dmytro wrote: . . .
Okay. Decent scholarshp. But that still does not impugn Ven Nyanaponika's idea of "bare attention," especially in terms of how Vens Bodhi and Analayo talk about it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:17 am

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
    [b]Bhikkhu Bodhi Page15

    We should remember that sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced
    as part of an’anupassanā,’ and this word helps to bring out the role of sati.


There's evidently a key misunderstanding.

The early and reliable Satipatthana-Vibhanga clearly distinguishes 'sati' and 'anupassana':

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... iddeso.htm
You'll need to spell it out.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:26 am

Dmytro wrote:
Ven. Nyanaponika mentions the Krishnamurti's "Choiceless Awareness" in his book on "Achtsamkeit" (Mindfulness), and describes the similarity between his approach and Krishnamurti's:

Es besteht freilich die Gefahr, daß die Eigenart dieser Methode in allzu einseitiger Perspektive verzeichnet wird, als ein extremer Pendelausschlag gegen Übungswege, welche die Konzentration auf ein einziges Objekt in den Mittelpunkt stellen. Man mag etwa meinen, daß willentliche Konzentration auf ein einziges Objekt oder gar jede methodische Übung wegen ihres angeblichen Zwangscharakters verwerflich seien und es ausreichend sei, eine nicht wählende Achtsamkeit lediglich auf das zu richten, was der Tag zuträgt. Dies ist zum Beispiel die Ansicht Krishnamurtis. Diese Einstellung findet auch Unterstützung durch eine vom Einfluß der Psychoanalyse genährte Furcht, daß jeder formende, wählende und ausschließende Eingriff in das geistige Gefüge zu Verkrampfungen, Verdrängungen und schließlich Neurosen führen mag. In all dem liegt ein berechtigter Kern, und gerade die Satipatthāna-Methode hat dem durch ihren «gewaltlosen», zwangfreien Charakter Rechnung getragen, ohne jedoch in die Extreme der vorgenannten Ansichten zu verfallen.
Actually, you might want to give us an accurate translation of this. What GoogleTranslation gives us is interesting and suggestive.

There certainly is a risk that the peculiarity of this method is listed in too one-sided perspective, as an extreme pendulum swing against exercise ways that put the focus on a single object in the center. One may think about that deliberate concentration on a single object or even any methodological exercise are objectionable because of their alleged coercive character and it would be sufficient, a non-dialing mindfulness only focus it on the what has been happening the day. This is, for example, the view Krishnamurti. This attitude is also support by the influence of psychoanalysis nourished fear that everyone is like forming, voting and exclusive engagement in the intellectual structure to cramps, repressions and eventually neuroses. In all this is a legitimate core, and just the Satipatthana method takes this into account by their "non-violent" non-coercive character, but without falling into the extremes of the above views.
It seems what Ven Nyanaponika is talking about, within the Buddhist context, is a bit different than what Krishnamurti is suggesting.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Dmytro » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:19 am

Dmytro wrote:The early and reliable Satipatthana-Vibhanga clearly distinguishes 'sati' and 'anupassana':

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... iddeso.htm


Here, the counterpart of "anupassana" is "sampajanna", and not "sati".

* * *

“Anupassī” ti. Tattha, katamā anupassanā?
“Contemplating”. Herein, what is contemplation?

Yā paññā pajānanā vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo, 05
That which is wisdom, knowing, investigation, deep investigation, investigation of (the nature of) things,

sallakkhaṇā upalakkhaṇā paccupalakkhaṇā, 06
discernment, discrimination, differentiation,

paṇḍiccaṁ kosallaṁ nepuññaṁ 07 vebhabyā cintā upaparikkhā,
erudition, skilfulness, subtlety, clarification, thoughtfulness, consideration,

bhūrī medhā pariṇāyikā vipassanā sampajaññaṁ patodo, 08
breadth, intelligence, guidance, insight, full awareness, examination,

paññā Paññindriyaṁ Paññābalaṁ, 09
wisdom, the Faculty of Wisdom, the Strength of Wisdom,

paññāsatthaṁ paññāpāsādo paññā-āloko paññā-obhāso paññāpajjoto paññāratanaṁ, 10
the sword of wisdom, height of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, flame of wisdom, treasure of wisdom,

amoho dhammavicayo Sammādiṭṭhi – ayaṁ vuccati “anupassanā”.
non-delusion, investigation of (the nature of) things, Right View – this is called “contemplation”.

* * *

“Sampajāno” ti. Tattha, katamaṁ sampajaññaṁ? 16
“Full awareness”. Herein, what is full awareness?

Yā paññā pajānanā vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo,
That which is wisdom, knowing, investigation, deep investigation, investigation of (the nature of) things,

sallakkhaṇā upalakkhaṇā paccupalakkhaṇā,
discernment, discrimination, differentiation,

paṇḍiccaṁ kosallaṁ nepuññaṁ vebhabyā cintā upaparikkhā,
erudition, skilfulness, subtlety, clarification, thoughtfulness, consideration,

bhūrī medhā pariṇāyikā vipassanā sampajaññaṁ patodo,
breadth, intelligence, guidance, insight, full awareness, examination,

paññā Paññindriyaṁ Paññābalaṁ,
wisdom, the Faculty of Wisdom, the Strength of Wisdom,

paññāsatthaṁ paññāpāsādo paññā-āloko paññā-obhāso paññāpajjoto paññāratanaṁ,
the sword of wisdom, height of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, flame of wisdom, treasure of wisdom,

amoho dhammavicayo Sammādiṭṭhi – idaṁ vuccati “sampajaññaṁ”.
non-delusion, investigation of (the nature of) things, Right View – this is called “full awareness”.

* * *

“Satimā” ti. Tattha, katamā sati?
“Mindful”. Herein, what is mindfulness?

Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā,
That which is mindfulness, recollection, recall, mindfulness, remembrance,

dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā,
bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing,

sati 17 Satindriyaṁ Satibalaṁ Sammāsati – ayaṁ vuccati “sati”.
mindfulness, the Faculty of Mindfulness, the Strength of Mindfulness, Right Mindfulness – this is called “mindfulness”.

* * *

'Sati' acts in pair with 'sampajanna', which has led to their conflation.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Dmytro » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:50 am

Ven. Nyanaponika mentions the Krishnamurti's "Choiceless Awareness" in his book on "Achtsamkeit" (Mindfulness), and describes the similarity between his approach and Krishnamurti's:

Es besteht freilich die Gefahr, daß die Eigenart dieser Methode in allzu einseitiger Perspektive verzeichnet wird, als ein extremer Pendelausschlag gegen Übungswege, welche die Konzentration auf ein einziges Objekt in den Mittelpunkt stellen. Man mag etwa meinen, daß willentliche Konzentration auf ein einziges Objekt oder gar jede methodische Übung wegen ihres angeblichen Zwangscharakters verwerflich seien und es ausreichend sei, eine nicht wählende Achtsamkeit lediglich auf das zu richten, was der Tag zuträgt. Dies ist zum Beispiel die Ansicht Krishnamurtis. Diese Einstellung findet auch Unterstützung durch eine vom Einfluß der Psychoanalyse genährte Furcht, daß jeder formende, wählende und ausschließende Eingriff in das geistige Gefüge zu Verkrampfungen, Verdrängungen und schließlich Neurosen führen mag. In all dem liegt ein berechtigter Kern, und gerade die Satipatthāna-Methode hat dem durch ihren «gewaltlosen», zwangfreien Charakter Rechnung getragen, ohne jedoch in die Extreme der vorgenannten Ansichten zu verfallen.


An approximate translation:

There is certainly a risk that the essence of this method will be seen in too one-sided perspective, as an extreme pendulum deviation from the ways of training that put the focus on a single object in the center. One may think that deliberate concentration on a single object or even any methodological exercise are objectionable because of their alleged coercive character, and it would be sufficient to direct a choiceless awareness to what happens during the day. This is, for example, the view of Krishnamurti. This attitude also finds support in the influence of psychoanalysis fed fears that any forming, selecting and excluding intervention in the structure of the psyche can lead to suppression, repression, and eventually to neurosis. All this has a seed of rationality, and indeed the Satipatthana method takes this into account by its "non-violent", non-coercive character, but without falling into the extremes of the above views.



It seems what Ven Nyanaponika is talking about, within the Buddhist context, is a bit different than what Krishnamurti is suggesting.


Yes, a bit different.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby danieLion » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:53 am

Dmytro wrote:Yes, 'remembrance, memory' is the only use of 'sati' in the suttas.
The importance of memory and remembering seems minimized, neglected or absent in the bare awareness approach, and seeing this shortcoming was one of the reasons I began looking at and employing alternative approaches (like Rev. T's). Properly understanding right mindfulness as right remembering makes a world of difference for practice. I tend to take right mindfulness as right remembering quite literally. From a psychological perspective, memory is notoriously unreliable and deceitful. Training our minds, then, necessarily involves confronting our propensities to ignorance and delusion via forgetting, denial, minimizing and other psychological strategies. In order to stop deceiving ourselves, we have to start not only remembering better but also uncovering the ways our memory twists events to conform to our beliefs that we are permanent, non-deluded selves. From my experience this is much harder (if not impossible) to do with a whatever-comes-up mindset.
Edit: For the record I find value in Nyanaponika and Bhikkhu Bodhi and Krishnamurti and Rev. T and Joseph Goldstein and Tilt and Dmytro and....
Last edited by danieLion on Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:56 am

Dmytro wrote:. . .


    [b]Bhikkhu Bodhi Page15

    We should remember that sati, in the context of satipaṭṭhāna practice, is always practiced
    as part of an’anupassanā,’ and this word helps to bring out the role of sati.
I do not see a conflation with what Ven Bodhi has had to say. You'll need to spell it out.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:04 am

danieLion wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Yes, 'remembrance, memory' is the only use of 'sati' in the suttas.
The importance of memory and remembering seems minimized, neglected or absent in the bare awareness approach, and seeing this shortcoming was one of the reasons I began looking at and employing alternative approaches (like Rev. T's). Properly understanding right mindfulness as right remembering makes a world of difference for practice. I tend to take right mindfulness as right remembering quite literally. From a psychological perspective, memory is notoriously unreliable and deceitful. Training our minds, then, necessarily involves confronting our propensities to ignorance and delusion via forgetting, denial, minimizing and other psychological strategies. In order to stop deceiving ourselves, we have to start not only remembering better but also uncovering the ways our memory twists events to conform to our beliefs that we are permanent, non-deluded selves. From my experience this is much harder (if not impossible) to do with a whatever-comes-up mindset.
Well, it seems that Ven Bodhi and Gethin would differ from Dmytro's assessment the "only" use of sati in the suttas. And I am sure you have seen in Goldstein's teachings it is a bit more sophisticated than merely "whatever-comes-up." And also. as others have pointed out, Ven Thanisarro's teachings are not really all that different from what one might find from a good vipassana teacher.

And spreaking of whatever-comes-up, I hear a great horned owl outside my window and I going out to take a look.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Mr Man » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:44 am

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As if that is the only use of sati in the suttas.


Yes, 'remembrance, memory' is the only use of 'sati' in the suttas.
.

Well possibly worth remembering that the words like "remembrance, memory" have a fairly broad level of meaning within the English language and may suggest different meanings to different people and in different contexts. I guess it would be the same with pali and "sati". Are remembrance and memory non verbal activities of the brain? Is that how people perceive them?
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:56 am

Mr Man wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As if that is the only use of sati in the suttas.


Yes, 'remembrance, memory' is the only use of 'sati' in the suttas.
.

Well possibly worth remembering that the words like "remembrance, memory" have a fairly broad level of meaning within the English language and may suggest different meanings to different people and in different contexts. I guess it would be the same with pali and "sati".
Which is precisely so with many terms used within the Pali suttas. It is not always safe to go by the mere lexigraphical meaning, as we see in these two looks at the issue:

What Does Mindfulness Really Mean? A Canonical Perspective by Bhikkhu Bodhi


On Some Definitions of Mindfulness by Rupert Gethin

And see: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&p=205498#p205438
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Postby Dmytro » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:24 am

tiltbillings wrote:I do not see a conflation with what Ven Bodhi has had to say. You'll need to spell it out.


I don't need it.
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