YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

jhana required? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

jhana required?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: jhana required?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:15 am


User avatar
DAWN
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: jhana required?

Postby DAWN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:04 pm

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.70
Susima Sutta: About Susima


Now at that time a large number of monks had declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: "We discern that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'"
...
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you wield manifold supranormal powers? ..
"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you hear — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far?"
"No, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you know the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with your own awareness? Do you discern a mind with passion as a mind with passion...
"No, friend."
...
"We're released through discernment, friend Susima." (Bhikkhu Bodhi : We are liberated by wisdom...)


PS
Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43 and AN 9.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

hermitwin
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: jhana required?

Postby hermitwin » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:03 pm

jhana is definitely not required.
this is clear from many people who became arahants just by listening to the Buddha.
however, jhana is the inevitable result if you are concentrated in meditation,
unless you deliberately avoid it.
Buddha said the pleasure of the jhana is the one pleasure that he allows himself.
so all the fear of jhana is totally unfounded.

User avatar
DAWN
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: jhana required?

Postby DAWN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:48 pm

Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

Maarten
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:14 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: jhana required?

Postby Maarten » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:02 pm


User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: jhana required?

Postby daverupa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:23 pm


User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: jhana required?

Postby reflection » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:02 pm

I think those quotes that say who and who became this and that are very dubious anyway. They are not the words of the Buddha, so who added these and how did they know?.. Very questionable and therefore I would not put any value on it.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2873
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: jhana required?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:13 pm


User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1160
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: jhana required?

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:19 pm

Apparently you can become a buddha by hearing one speak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81vakabuddha
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: jhana required?

Postby daverupa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:23 pm


User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2873
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: jhana required?

Postby Mr Man » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:58 pm


User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: jhana required?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:29 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

ohnofabrications
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: jhana required?

Postby ohnofabrications » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:11 am

hi Cittasanto,

I think we mostly agree on the things you stated, but I still don't interpret the pali canon such that awakening can't possibly occur without jhana.

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: jhana required?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:37 am

Maybe this listing is useful to get not caught by names:

Concentration:
Four Bases for Power
Right Concentration (Eightfold Path)
Rapture (Factors for Awakening)
Serenity (Factors for Awakening)
Concentration (Factors for Awakening)
Equanimity (Factors for Awakening)
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: jhana required?

Postby ground » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:37 am


User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: jhana required?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:45 am

Which does not assume that one did not went through the states of concentration. Or was spontaneously meant as a synonym for "so quick that, while falling from the tree the branches crossed have not been seen".
Of cause, one would maybe not be able to explain who it came that way.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: jhana required?

Postby ground » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:47 am


User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: jhana required?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:57 am

So the sevenfold path? Or an unconditioned path?
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: jhana required?

Postby ground » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:11 am

When there is a lack of experience there is a lack of certainty. Therefore clinging to the raft of ideas generated after having contacted words may protect some from doubt and the fear arising from that. If clinging to the raft of ideas is helpful through providing felt support for consciousness, a preliminary home for consciousness, then it may be conducive, if not then not.

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: jhana required?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:23 am

How does one come to experiances?
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_


Return to “Samatha Bhāvana”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine