Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
whynotme
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by whynotme »

Also here:
Arahants, Bodhisattvas, and Buddhas by bhikkhu Bodhi

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ttvas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't fully agree with bhikkhu Bodhi, but I find that he has some interesting points. On the arahants and buddhas, I have this simile:

Before Issac Newton found out that F=ma no one knew it. After he found out F=ma, he taught that to everyone. What he taught is the most important thing. He went through many mistakes to find out that formula. Now the way is already opened, no need to reinvent the wheel.

IMO, the bodhisattva is exactly like that. Yes, there is a way to become the Buddha similar to there is a way to become Issac Newton, or someone the first in something, simply because it is a historical fact.

And after found out the truth, no way the Buddha would teach about the bodhisattva way, it is similar to in no way Issac Newton would teach others to follow all of his experiments and mistakes, just to know F=ma.
E.g Issac Newton maybe tried F=ma/2 or F=mv, etc.. and then found out all of those are false. Finally, he would simply teach that F=ma, because only it is worth to mention. Like that, the Buddha only teaches about suffering and how to end it, he would never teach about the bodhisattva way. That's why no one can find the teachings about the bodhisattva way in the Nikaya.

So my conclusion is that, there is a bodhisattva way, but no way it is a clear way like someone can point out in suttas, it is just random walking. The Buddha, like Issac Newton or every inventor, tried many way before the invention, when he had not found the eightfold path. Some lives, he practiced and taught the way to devas world, some lives he tried the way to brahma world. Some lives he was maybe a Christian, a atheist, who knows? He just tried his best in every situations out there, sought all guides and advice available at the moment. And still, all of that is inferior to the final teaching after he got enlightenment like every beta version is inferior to the final formula F=ma.

All the teaching claimed from Buddha's mouth about the bodhisattva way are false, the bodhisattva way is the hidden way because of the reasons above. If you like that way, let yourself be prepared, you need much more than the official false guides from the suttas (coz there isn't any).

Regards
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Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?
Yes. It's explained in A Treatise on the Pāramīs by the Theravāda commentator Ācariya Dhammapāla.
ccharles wrote:Well I'm not to grounded on the differences honestly, however I've read that "Buddhahood" is the highest form of enlightenment, and I am interested in possibly taking that path. If you can share your knowledge on the differences as well I would greatly appreciate it.
Yes, a buddha's awakening is unsurpassable and perfect (anuttarāsammāsambodhi) and surpasses the awakening of a disciple (sāvakabodhi). For example, the Paṭisambhidāmagga explains the following knowledge and abilities that a buddha has developed which are not developed by arahant disciples:
  • knowledge of the penetration of other beings' faculties
  • knowledge of other beings' biases and underlying tendancies
  • knowledge of the twin miracle*
  • knowledge of the attainment of great compassion
  • omniscience & unobstructed knowledge

    *i.e. the ability to produce fire and water from various parts of the body, as well as walk amid an aura of colors while a created image of his body sits or lies down, etc.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?
Yes. It's explained in A Treatise on the Pāramīs by the Theravāda commentator Ācariya Dhammapāla.
ccharles wrote:Well I'm not to grounded on the differences honestly, however I've read that "Buddhahood" is the highest form of enlightenment, and I am interested in possibly taking that path. If you can share your knowledge on the differences as well I would greatly appreciate it.
Yes, a buddha's awakening is unsurpassable and perfect (anuttarāsammāsambodhi) and surpasses the awakening of a disciple (sāvakabodhi). For example, the Paṭisambhidāmagga explains the following knowledge and abilities that a buddha has developed which are not developed by arahant disciples:
  • knowledge of the penetration of other beings' faculties
  • knowledge of other beings' biases and underlying tendancies
  • knowledge of the twin miracle*
  • knowledge of the attainment of great compassion
  • omniscience & unobstructed knowledge

    *i.e. the ability to produce fire and water from various parts of the body, as well as walk amid an aura of colors while a created image of his body sits or lies down, etc.
The suttas, however, paint a bit of a different picture.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:The suttas, however, paint a bit of a different picture.
Your interpretation of the suttas may paint a bit of a different picture. If so, your interpretation differs from that of the ancient Theravāda tradition.
Tom
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Tom »

Ñāṇa wrote:
ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?
Yes. It's explained in A Treatise on the Pāramīs by the Theravāda commentator Ācariya Dhammapāla.
ccharles wrote:Well I'm not to grounded on the differences honestly, however I've read that "Buddhahood" is the highest form of enlightenment, and I am interested in possibly taking that path. If you can share your knowledge on the differences as well I would greatly appreciate it.
Yes, a buddha's awakening is unsurpassable and perfect (anuttarāsammāsambodhi) and surpasses the awakening of a disciple (sāvakabodhi). For example, the Paṭisambhidāmagga explains the following knowledge and abilities that a buddha has developed which are not developed by arahant disciples:
  • knowledge of the penetration of other beings' faculties
  • knowledge of other beings' biases and underlying tendancies
  • knowledge of the twin miracle*
  • knowledge of the attainment of great compassion
  • omniscience & unobstructed knowledge

    *i.e. the ability to produce fire and water from various parts of the body, as well as walk amid an aura of colors while a created image of his body sits or lies down, etc.
If one had already successfully made the aspiration to become a Buddha in the presence of a Buddha in a past life, how would one know? If one has not done that, is there a path one can take to eventually meet a Buddha in a future life, so he can then successfully make the aspiration?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The suttas, however, paint a bit of a different picture.
Your interpretation of the suttas may paint a bit of a different picture. If so, your interpretation differs from that of the ancient Theravāda tradition.
My look at the suttas is sound enough and in contrast to what you have posted, it neatly shows the difference between what the suttas say and what the Theravada tradition says, which is my only point. I am not saying "bad Theravada tradition." It is simply a matter of giving information and what one does with it is their choice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The suttas, however, paint a bit of a different picture.
Your interpretation of the suttas may paint a bit of a different picture. If so, your interpretation differs from that of the ancient Theravāda tradition.
My look at the suttas is sound enough and in contrast to what you have posted, it neatly shows the difference between what the suttas say and what the Theravada tradition says, which is my only point. I am not saying "bad Theravada tradition." It is simply a matter of giving information and what one does with it is their choice.
Your survey is selective, and doesn't take into account a number of sutta passages as well as various texts in the Khuddakanikāya. Regarding suttas, in the context of knowledge there is AN 4.24:
  • Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established.
And SN 56.31:
  • [T]hose things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught].
And in the context of penetrating others' faculties, dispositions, and underlying tendencies, there is SN 6.1:
  • Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.
And in the context of physical qualities, MN 91:
  • The report that has been spread about Master Gotama is true, sir, and not otherwise; and Master Gotama is one such as this and not otherwise. He possesses the thirty-two marks of a Great Man.

    Master Gotama sets his foot down squarely — this is a mark of a Great Man in Master Gotama. On the soles of his feet there are wheels with a thousand spokes and ribs and hubs all complete … He has projecting heels … He has long fingers and toes … His hands and feet are soft and tender … He has netted hands and feet … His feet are arched … He has legs like an antelope's … When he stands without stooping, the palms of both his hands touch and rub against his knees … His male organ is enclosed in a sheath … He is the colour of gold, his skin has a golden sheen … He is fine-skinned, and because of the fineness of his skin, dust and dirt do not stick on his body … His body-hairs grow singly, each body-hair growing alone in a hair socket … The tips of his body-hairs turn up; the up-turned body-hairs are blue-black, the colour of collyrium, curled and turned to the right … He has the straight limbs of a Brahma … He has seven convexities … He has the torso of a lion … The furrow between his shoulders is filled in … He has the spread of a banyan tree; the span of his arms equals the height of his body, and the height of his body equals the span of his arms … His neck and his shoulders are even … His taste is supremely acute … He is lion-jawed … He has forty teeth … His teeth are even … His teeth are without gaps … His teeth are quite white … He has a large tongue … He has a divine voice, like the call of the Karavika bird … His eyes are deep blue … He has the eyelashes of an ox … He has hair growing in the space between his eyebrows, which is white with the sheen of soft cotton … His head is shaped like a turban - this is a mark of a Great Man in Master Gotama. Master Gotama is endowed with these thirty-two marks of a Great Man.
These are just a few examples, without even taking into consideration passages from the Khuddakanikāya, etc.
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

ccharles wrote:If one had already successfully made the aspiration to become a Buddha in the presence of a Buddha in a past life, how would one know? If one has not done that, is there a path one can take to eventually meet a Buddha in a future life, so he can then successfully make the aspiration?
The safe bet would be to keep practicing the perfections to the best of one's abilities. There are living Theravāda monks who are considered to be bodhisattas. For example, Ajahn Gavesako mentions having met Luang Phor Jahm in north-east Thailand in 2011:
  • We stayed at the monastery of Luang Por Jahm nearby; he is 101 years old and a disciple of Luang Por Mun, he used to go wandering through the forests with him. He is also reputed to be a practising bodhisatta, cultivating the perfections (parami) in order to become the future Buddha no. 16, for which he apparently already received a prediction in a past life.
Here's a picture of Luang Phor Jahm blessing visitors:

Image
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote: . . .
Thanks for the quotes, but they do not at all challenge my postion in terms of the Buddha's bodhi and the arahant's bodhi as spelled out in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Tom
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Tom »

Ñāṇa wrote:
And SN 56.31:
  • [T]hose things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught].
But if one follows the path of "that which he has taught", can they arrive at the direct knowledge of "that which he has not taught"?
Tom
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Tom »

Ñāṇa wrote:
ccharles wrote:If one had already successfully made the aspiration to become a Buddha in the presence of a Buddha in a past life, how would one know? If one has not done that, is there a path one can take to eventually meet a Buddha in a future life, so he can then successfully make the aspiration?
The safe bet would be to keep practicing the perfections to the best of one's abilities. There are living Theravāda monks who are considered to be bodhisattas. For example, Ajahn Gavesako mentions having met Luang Phor Jahm in north-east Thailand in 2011:
  • We stayed at the monastery of Luang Por Jahm nearby; he is 101 years old and a disciple of Luang Por Mun, he used to go wandering through the forests with him. He is also reputed to be a practising bodhisatta, cultivating the perfections (parami) in order to become the future Buddha no. 16, for which he apparently already received a prediction in a past life.
I can't find any information about Luang Por Jahm online, do you know where I could learn more about this man? Also, if I were to visit this man, do you know if he would be able to explain the bodhisatta path to me (in english :) )?
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

ccharles wrote:But if one follows the path of "that which he has taught", can they arrive at the direct knowledge of "that which he has not taught"?
He taught the perfections. As already mentioned, a good source is A Treatise on the Pāramīs. Another good source is the first chapter of A Manual of the Excellent Man by Ven. Ledi Sayādaw. The latter includes teachings on making a bodhisattva aspiration, etc. (pp. 13-21). Another example of the aspiration can be found in The Coming Buddha Ariya Metteyya:
  • May I undertake the life of a bhikkhu in the dispensation and illumine that noble (institution), being the possessor of potency, mindful and well-versed in the Tipiṭaka. May he (i.e. Metteyya) predict (of me), “This one will be a Buddha in the future.” And may I offer gifts to the Buddhas who will come one after the other and (receive sure prediction) from them too. May I fare on in repeated births, give food and other things that are desired like a wish-conferring tree. May I fulfil all the perfections of morality, renunciation, wisdom, and so forth, and having attained the summit of the perfections, become an incomparable Buddha. May I preach the sweet Doctrine which brings bliss to all beings, liberating the whole world with its Devas from the bondage of repeated births. May I guide them to the most excellent, tranquil Nibbāna.
ccharles wrote:I can't find any information about Luang Por Jahm online, do you know where I could learn more about this man? Also, if I were to visit this man, do you know if he would be able to explain the bodhisatta path to me (in english :) )?
I don't know if Luang Phor Jahm teaches on this subject or not. You could PM Ajahn Gavesako to see if he has any more information.
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Hanzze
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Hanzze »

Dear Ccarles,

Maybe some explaining here in another forum are helpful: The Bodhisattva path in the teachings of the elders

How ever, the advice of Nana "The safe bet would be to keep practicing the perfections to the best of one's abilities." is the best way one can do, where ever he is without the mistake to build something up on speculation and it's very important to discover the own intentions which move to the will of becoming what ever the object might be (for the arahant as well as a Buddha the last final object is not to become anything at least, which has to go throught a noble desire). There is so many tanha (desire) hidden in motivations, one would not see if the mind is not trained yet and selfhonesty (better appamada) not jet established.

A good essay might be also: Freedom From Buddha Nature

Buddhist practice means to be mindful of the present step and not speculating about hills, brigdes, dangers... in the future. Importand is, to start to walk and the more one focus just on the next step the bigger is the capacity of range. People who discuss and waste time in philosophy do not reach anything, the just live in a world of ideas.

One is clear, the path to gain arahanthood (free of suffering, hunger and thirst) or a Buddha (free of suffering, hunger and thirst) is the same. To really help others, how ever, one must be free of greed, hated and delusion first by one self. Not knowing the path well jet, it is how ever good to follow the advices of one who has gone so fare, and those advices are still avalible to day.

The Arahant/Buddha/Bodhisattva discussion remembers often on children, but in fact does just reflect the same as any other struggle in the world. In actually struggle with each other they use to ague with there daddy or they daddies possession "MY daddy has a bigger car then your daddy".

The more one seriously pratice, the more things grow clear and what ever motivation might insire you, "transform" it into energy of serious and honest pratice like told by the wise. One can not fail if there is always appamada present.
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
daverupa
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

Ñāṇa wrote:no historical precedent in the suttas
Well, one wonders:
SN 22.58 wrote:"So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between one rightly self-awakened and a monk discernment-released?"

"For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their arbitrator. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it."

"In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "The Tathagata — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — is the one who gives rise to the path (previously) unarisen, who engenders the path (previously) unengendered, who points out the path (previously) not pointed out. He knows the path, is expert in the path, is adept at the path. And his disciples now keep following the path and afterwards become endowed with the path.

"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing between one rightly self-awakened and a monk discernment-released."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:no historical precedent in the suttas
Well, one wonders:

The Blessed One said, "The Tathagata — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — is the one who gives rise to the path (previously) unarisen, who engenders the path (previously) unengendered, who points out the path (previously) not pointed out. He knows the path, is expert in the path, is adept at the path. And his disciples now keep following the path and afterwards become endowed with the path.

"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing between one rightly self-awakened and a monk discernment-released."
One can quite rightly infer from this passage, when taken in conjunction with the passages supplied here, that the knowledge and other aptitudes required to give rise to the path previously unarisen is necessarily more extensive than that required by a sāvaka to follow the path to the point of fruition once it has been disclosed and taught in detail. This is precisely what every Buddhist tradition has concluded from the content of the Nikāyas.
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