Karmic causes of associating with unwise

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Hanzze
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Karmic causes of associating with unwise

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:18 am

Taken from the interpretation on the Mangala Sutta Ven. K. Gunaratana Thera, there is some explaining about it:

Not To Associate With The Unwise Is Most Blissful.

Fools or ignorant people not only injure themselves, but also those around them. If we associate with them, we are apt to follow their ways and so harm ourselves mentally as well as bodily, because all troubles or fear arise from ignorance or foolishness. Even if we do not practise their methods, the more fact of associating with them will harm our reputation; in the same way that a banana leaf is contaminated if it is used to wrap up a piece of rotten fish or meat. The leaf is dirty and smelly even after the fish or rotten meat is thrown away.

Here is a story to illustrate this:

Once, when the Bodhisat was born as a man called Akitti Pandita, the King of Devas promised to grant him any boon he asked. Akitti Pandita begged that he might never meet, see or talk with fools. The King of Devas was surprised and asked him the reason for this strange request. Replying, he explained that fools or the unwise ones i.e. people who do not understand discipline, always lead their friends to bad ways and teach them to do wrong, because they do not know the right way them selves. If discipline or good ways are spoken in their presence, they become angry, for they cannot understand, they lose their temper and quarrels arise. If discipline or good ways are spoken in their presence, they become angry, for they do not understand them. Therefore he prayed that he might never speak, meet or come in contact with fools.


Now my question is, does anybody has some infomation about the karmic causes that one is in such a situation? Is it simply because one is him self not wise and constantly seeks such things as they can be very teaching?

Does anybody has any idea of how to change such an situation? Is it just a matter of own understanding or is a "physical" change needed as well? A monk one replayed on a hint "That is mara" with the words: "We do not let go of seeking Mara?"

What are your ideas also in regard or kanti (patient)?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Karmic causes of associating with unwise

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:24 pm

In the ultimate sense "asevanā" means "not to follow," i.e. not to do what foolish people do even if one does have to associate with them. However, it will clearly be easier not to follow their ways by not associating with them in the first place — not even seeing, hearing about, or reading about what they are doing.

By associating with the wise, one hears mostly wholesome ideas and speech, which are of benefit if one follows them, but may be harmful if one is averse to them.

If you find yourself trapped in a relationship with a foolish person, the wisest thing is to get out of it.

Yes, past kamma may be a cause of association with the foolish. For example, sexual misconduct in the past may result in being married to a person of bad character.

Even in this very life one can see that that can happen — if young people give in to lust at a young age, and get married because a baby is on the way, it may not be the happiest of marriages. If they learn sexual restraint, follow their parents' advice, and make a carefully considered choice, the marriage has a better chance of being a happy one.

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Hanzze
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Re: Karmic causes of associating with unwise

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:47 am

Thanks a lot for your words Ven. Pesala,

of cause such assosiating is always a matter of ones own capability of resistance. If one is strong, it would not turn him on a deeper level but I guess such a situation is reached earliest when one reaches the stream. Remembering the suttas, I guess it is in connection with what is called admirable friends which is a prerequisite for developing the wings of awakening.
What does also come to my mind, is that living on a place where dhamma is florishing is also mentioned as a prerequisite.

The nessesarity of being apart from usual behavior is also refelected in the patimokkha, thinking of staying with householders not more than three days. In relation for beings strong enought, there is also still the advice to stay away from unvirtuose people (MN2) because it could damage ones reputation (which might be not well for the ordinated Sangha as well as ones own reputation that might close door to meaningfull relations.

Assosiating with people of wrong view would makes it difficult to enter the stream if one strives for it.

From my personal experians and observations so far, there is 100% agreement in all this listed arguments. On the other hand, for example, I can not remember, that I was not "assosiated" (better next) with people which would be broadly called strangers. When ever there will be crasy people in the near, they would come to me. Actually non of them was in fact what we can call a bad person, while they would be generally regarded as those, even usually acting like those. But it would be also wrong if I would say that I havn't seek for places where no wind blows as soon as the conditions have been no more callenge.

Friends and people did not only one time tell me, if we would be with such people and even "deal" with them, we would not be here any more.

What I am still wondering is, if such assosiation of such kind is just possible because of past merits and in a way a wasting of merits or in contrary a gaining of merits (thinking on kanti for example) and if such assosiation at least makes sence or is simply a waste of time and merits. So it is also a kind of tanha (in regard of "false" compassion) question.
Over all I could not say that this assosiating brought me in a worser situation from a Dhamma view, not to speak about experiances but of cause, I have no reference how far it would have been if otherwise. Allthrough it would be maybe rather unwise to see such a karma vipaka (being "caught" to associate with unwise) generaly as unfortunate and not a fortunete oppinion, maybe even a bliss.

Not so easy if searching for reasoning, but being mindful no problem to be at ease. Which might be the best way to view and the lesson to constantly remember and learn to make it more naturally.

By the way, I would like to express the joy and gratefulness while assosiating with wise people like here on DW. It is not so usually, actually it is very rare.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Karmic causes of associating with unwise

Postby pegembara » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:50 am

"Birds of the same feather flock together"

Like minds attract each other. That is why it is said, when the mind is ready a teacher appears.



1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

Dh 1
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Hanzze
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Re: Karmic causes of associating with unwise

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:17 am

Yes pegembara,

"Birds of the same feather flock together"


of cause that is a proverb that is importand to reflext on and on to fall not into an illusion and requires much honesty to one self, but mana (or "I" believe in all its subtile forms) is always aside and the last pice of the main evil root to fall. Who else would raise such a question as an "hidden" I, who else would raise such a question as a "negated" I.

But I would not say that there is a matter of folck together (in a kind of following or addopting there ways to be part) and that is maybe the fine question or the edge of desition between "secure" and secure with the secound teacher dukkha in all its aspects.

And at least it is a question of what kind of happiness one seeks, as we know that many addvices are given for diferent parts of the way. The mangala Sutta for example starts on a very worldly level and raises to different blisses step by step.

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

Nothing to disagree, but as truncate before already, many advices had the task to simply protect the body (Sangha, group, ones reputation) to simply lift one as secure as possible to a higher stage or to protect simply a good enviroment (what if the good enviroment is actually not a good, but mentioned as such attached to worldy happiness). Happiness can be very tricky and if it is even worldy contraproductive.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Karmic causes of associating with unwise

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:57 am

Hello Dear Hanzze,
All the Chapter 2 (SN 14.10-22) of SN 14 speak about this association of beings by elments. I hope it answer on the question.

With regards

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html

SN 14.15
According to Actions


At one time, the Blessed One lived among the Gijjha peaks in Rajagaha.

At that time, venerable Sàriputta was walking thoughtfully in the vicinity of the Blessed One followed by many bhikkhus.
Venerable Mahàmoggallàna was walking thoughtfully in the vicinity of the Blessed One followed by many bhikkhus.
Venerable Mahàkassapa was walking thoughtfully in the vicinity of the Blessed One followed by many bhikkhus.
Venerable Anuruddha was walking thoughtfully in the vicinity of the Blessed One followed by many bhikkhus.
Venerable Puõõa Mantàniputta was walking thoughtfully in the vicinity of the Blessed One followed by many bhikkhus.
Venerable Upàli was walking thoughtfully in the vicinity of the Blessed One followed by many bhikkhus.
Venerable ânanda was walking thoughtfully in the vicinity of the Blessed One followed by many bhikkhus.
Devadatta too was walking thoughtfully in the vicinity of the Blessed One followed by many bhikkhus.

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus:

Bhikkhus, do you see Sàriputta walking thoughtfully followed by many bhikkhus?û
Yes, venerable sir.û
Bhikkhus, all those bhikkhus are very wise.

Bhikkhus, do you see Moggallàna walking thoughtfully, followed by many bhikkhus?û
Yes, venerable sir.û
Bhikkhus, all those bhikkhus have great psychic powers.

Bhikkhus, do you see Kassapa walking thoughtfully, followed by many bhikkhus?û
Yes, venerable sir.û
Bhikkhus, all those bhikkhus observe austerities.û

Bhikkhus, do you see Anuruddha walking thoughtfully, followed by many bhikkhus?û
Yes, venerable sir.û
Bhikkhus, all those bhikkhus have developed the divine eye.

Bhikkhus, do you see Puõõa Mantàniputta walking thoughtfully, followed by many bhikkhus?û
Yes, venerable sir.û
Bhikkhus, all those bhikkhus converse about ethical problems.

Bhikkhus, do you see Upàli walking thoughtfully, followed by many bhikkhus?û
Yes, venerable sir.û
Bhikkhus, all those bhikkhus know the discipline.

Bhikkhus, do you see ânanda walking thoughtfully, followed by many bhikkhus?û
Yes, venerable sir.û
Bhikkhus, all those bhikkhus are learned.

Bhikkhus, do you see Devadatta walking thoughtfully, followed by many bhikkhus?û
Yes, venerable sir.û
Bhikkhus, all those bhikkhus are with evil desires.û

Bhikkhus, beings get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.
Bhikkhus, even in the past beings got together and agreed according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations got together and agreed with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations got together and agreed with others of virtuous inclinations.
Bhikkhus, even in the future beings will get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations will get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations will get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.
Bhikkhus, even at present beings get together and agree according to the elements. Those with inferior inclinations get together and agree with others of inferior inclinations and those with virtuous inclinations get together and agree with others of virtuous inclinations.û
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Hanzze
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Re: Karmic causes of associating with unwise

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:01 am

Excelent! Excelent! Excelent!
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_


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