Accepting Rebirth

[Nibbida]

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, etiam nunc justo urna vehicula, rhoncus nam non facilisis aliquet, mauris nulla nisl convallis per ut. Venenatis per, vitae dapibus nam pellentesque id pellentesque, tortor augue. Wisi neque lacus dolor et, bibendum leo, mattis quam quisque, curabitur aenean mollis semper diam nisl, maecenas neque non velit. Iaculis velit rutrum odio nibh, lectus et pellentesque arcu quam ac, sit velit tellus hendrerit a augue nisl, mollis ipsum, iaculis vestibulum orci dui mauris ante. Purus malesuada, ut sem, potenti wisi sit velit. Mi dignissim felis rhoncus mauris facilisis, urna consectetuer quisque aliquam curabitur. Suspendisse libero amet sed feugiat. Consequat amet elit consectetuer ut et pellentesque, duis imperdiet nostra sed vestibulum, quis adipiscing nulla ante mattis. At ut commodo, nec orci, metus praesent.

Cras id, tellus wisi quisque curabitur, erat augue lacus lectus pretium, lacus quam tellus vitae quam. Nullam lorem nunc, velit maecenas, vestibulum sed suspendisse eget sem, velit sed, sed libero id. Nec a et. Fermentum senectus consectetuer, faucibus est pharetra vel ac rhoncus nec, ultrices sed mauris perspiciatis odio, ut neque neque posuere. Ullamcorper odio nunc wisi posuere. Pede est vestibulum, eu nunc pharetra, id maecenas accumsan quam faucibus luctus, habitasse vel sagittis eu convallis, urna dolor. Ac dolor ac tellus libero quis lacinia, justo elit vel quis, vestibulum viverra pellentesque sit. Quis tortor ullamcorper amet magnis hymenaeos potenti, interdum mollis quam aliquam turpis nihil.

[Ben]

Hi Nibbida

I recommend that you have a look at MN 60: Apannaka Sutta 'The Incontrovertible Teaching'. I have transcribed Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to the sutta on the rebirth thread in the classical theravada forum. The Buddha gives a discourse to a group of householders who have become confused as to which path to follow and gives them advice as to how to proceed to get the benefits of the holy life while still having doubts about the veracity of rebirth or other whether immatarial realms exist or not.
Metta

Ben

[jcsuperstar]

Accepting it is not required, but outright rejecting it or being agnostic stands in the way of Nibbana's attainment, while accepting rebirth is a condition favorable to Nibbana's attainment because it is a wholesome view, even if bound up with kamma and samsara.

There are enlightened Individuals who are agnostic about rebirth across lifetimes. I cannot say whether this position helped, hindered, or had no effect on their attainments. There are people outside of the Buddhist traditions who have also awakened and did not believe in (or know about) rebirth across lifetimes.

um, if one was enlightened wouldnt they no longer be agnostic about anything?

[adosa]

Personally I find my practice gets muddled when I speculate about the future or the past. As Ben says just put it aside for now.

Here is a succinct quote from MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

Ron

[mikenz66]

But note that there is a problem with the present as well:

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

See the analysis in MN 131.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"And how is one taken in with regard to present qualities? There is the case where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person who has not seen the noble ones, is not versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is not trained in the teachings of the noble ones, sees form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

It's seeing a "self" in the past, present or future that is the inappropriate attention.

Mike

[Individual]

Accepting it is not required, but outright rejecting it or being agnostic stands in the way of Nibbana's attainment, while accepting rebirth is a condition favorable to Nibbana's attainment because it is a wholesome view, even if bound up with kamma and samsara.

There are enlightened Individuals who are agnostic about rebirth across lifetimes. I cannot say whether this position helped, hindered, or had no effect on their attainments. There are people outside of the Buddhist traditions who have also awakened and did not believe in (or know about) rebirth across lifetimes.

um, if one was enlightened wouldnt they no longer be agnostic about anything?

...Yes... and agnosticism seems to fall under one of the 52 wrong views, the one about the refusal to take a clear position.

[adosa]

But note that there is a problem with the present as well:

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

See the analysis in MN 131.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"And how is one taken in with regard to present qualities? There is the case where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person who has not seen the noble ones, is not versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is not trained in the teachings of the noble ones, sees form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form.

It's seeing a "self" in the past, present or future that is the inappropriate attention.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Good Point. For me personally, worrying about what (I) will be in the future is also inappropriate attention as it falls in the realm of a speculative view.

FWIW,


Ron

[tiltbillings]

For me personally, worrying about what (I) will be in the future is also inappropriate attention as it falls in the realm of a speculative view.

But you are going to do it, anyway.

[adosa]

For me personally, worrying about what (I) will be in the future is also inappropriate attention as it falls in the realm of a speculative view.

But you are going to do it, anyway.

So true!

[Nibbida]

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, etiam nunc justo urna vehicula, rhoncus nam non facilisis aliquet, mauris nulla nisl convallis per ut. Venenatis per, vitae dapibus nam pellentesque id pellentesque, tortor augue. Wisi neque lacus dolor et, bibendum leo, mattis quam quisque, curabitur aenean mollis semper diam nisl, maecenas neque non velit. Iaculis velit rutrum odio nibh, lectus et pellentesque arcu quam ac, sit velit tellus hendrerit a augue nisl, mollis ipsum, iaculis vestibulum orci dui mauris ante. Purus malesuada, ut sem, potenti wisi sit velit. Mi dignissim felis rhoncus mauris facilisis, urna consectetuer quisque aliquam curabitur. Suspendisse libero amet sed feugiat. Consequat amet elit consectetuer ut et pellentesque, duis imperdiet nostra sed vestibulum, quis adipiscing nulla ante mattis. At ut commodo, nec orci, metus praesent.

Cras id, tellus wisi quisque curabitur, erat augue lacus lectus pretium, lacus quam tellus vitae quam. Nullam lorem nunc, velit maecenas, vestibulum sed suspendisse eget sem, velit sed, sed libero id. Nec a et. Fermentum senectus consectetuer, faucibus est pharetra vel ac rhoncus nec, ultrices sed mauris perspiciatis odio, ut neque neque posuere. Ullamcorper odio nunc wisi posuere. Pede est vestibulum, eu nunc pharetra, id maecenas accumsan quam faucibus luctus, habitasse vel sagittis eu convallis, urna dolor. Ac dolor ac tellus libero quis lacinia, justo elit vel quis, vestibulum viverra pellentesque sit. Quis tortor ullamcorper amet magnis hymenaeos potenti, interdum mollis quam aliquam turpis nihil.

[Nibbida]

Lorem Ipsum is simply dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. Lorem Ipsum has been the industry's standard dummy text ever since the 1500s, when an unknown printer took a galley of type and scrambled it to make a type specimen book. It has survived not only five centuries, but also the leap into electronic typesetting, remaining essentially unchanged. It was popularised in the 1960s with the release of Letraset sheets containing Lorem Ipsum passages, and more recently with desktop publishing software like Aldus PageMaker including versions of Lorem Ipsum.

[Individual]

...Yes... and agnosticism seems to fall under one of the 52 wrong views, the one about the refusal to take a clear position.

jcsuperstar,
Do you mean that that enlightened individuals become omniscient? There are enlightened Zen masters have reported having no experiences of past lives.

Again, I'm not saying that I don't believe in rebirth across lifetimes or that I'm agnostic. I haven't said anything either way, because it's not relevant.

Having a list of 52 wrong views sounds a little dogmatic to me.

This sutta clarifies the scope of the Buddha's knowledge, and exalts him above the common, agnostic philosopher.

The list of 52 wrong views might be misunderstood in a dogmatic way, yes, but it still seems to be a very useful list of common wrong views, both back then and even today. Agnosticism can be a good thing if a person is honest about their ignorance and refuses to take a position simply because they don't know: they're still investigating. It becomes a problem, metaphorically described as "eel-wriggling," when a person adopts the label out of a refusal to acknowledge their ignorance and to further investigate what they don't know.

[Dhammanando]

Hi Nibbida,

I didn't say whether or not I was agnostic about rebirth across lifetimes, only that there are enlightened individuals who are.

In the Theravada their claims to enlightenment (or the claims that their tradition makes on their behalf) would be dismissed without appeal. In the Theravadin conception of enlightenment one may be enlightened without recalling former existences, but not without understanding the conditionality of dhammas. To doubt or reject rebirth is to suppose that those dhammas denoted "causes and conditions for further becoming" might not in fact give rise to further becoming. To suppose this is possible only for one by whom the conditionality of dhammas has neither been understood intellectually nor penetrated by insight.

• When dhammas become manifest
  To the ardent meditating brahman,
  All his doubts then vanish since he understands
  Each dhamma along with its cause.
  (from the Udana, sutta 1)

One needs to bear in mind that when those of non-Theravadin persuasion speak of 'enlightenment', they're often referring to something altogether different from the enlightenment of the Buddha's Buddhism.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

[Dhammanando]

Hi Nibbida,

Having a list of 52 wrong views sounds a little dogmatic to me.

The list is actually of 62 views.

Have you read the Brahmajala Sutta and seen what these views are, what the Buddha says about how each view arises and in what its error consists? If you have, then would you care to say which ones in particular struck you as being a dogmatic judgment on the part of the Buddha?

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

[Nibbida]

Lorem Ipsum is simply dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. Lorem Ipsum has been the industry's standard dummy text ever since the 1500s, when an unknown printer took a galley of type and scrambled it to make a type specimen book. It has survived not only five centuries, but also the leap into electronic typesetting, remaining essentially unchanged. It was popularised in the 1960s with the release of Letraset sheets containing Lorem Ipsum passages, and more recently with desktop publishing software like Aldus PageMaker including versions of Lorem Ipsum.ight reasoning is put in place that makes anyone else's views "wrong" and easily dismissed. Whether or not it's true, it's a slippery slope to dogmatic thinking. To reiterate, this is not to say that I disagree with the principles discussed here.

Lorem Ipsum is simply dummy text of the printing and typesetting industry. Lorem Ipsum has been the industry's standard dummy text ever since the 1500s, when an unknown printer took a galley of type and scrambled it to make a type specimen book. It has survived not only five centuries, but also the leap into electronic typesetting, remaining essentially unchanged. It was popularised in the 1960s with the release of Letraset sheets containing Lorem Ipsum passages, and more recently with desktop publishing software like Aldus PageMaker including versions of Lorem Ipsum.