Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:Your earlier simplification of the textual issues into "Pali sources" shows a willing ignorance of these important issues, many of which bear directly on practice.
I'm not aware of any Pāli, Sanskrit, Chinese, or Tibetan Buddhist sources which deny that omniscience was a part of the Buddha's awakening.
daverupa wrote:To 'contradict' the Paṭisambhidāmagga is of no more or less consequence than to 'contradict' the Shorter Sukhāvatīvyūha Sūtra....
Within the context of Pāli commentary it certainly is.
daverupa wrote:Theravada has a unique history, which most of us appreciate to some extent, hence this forum. But to adhere to the whole of the Theravada corpus is to make a choice of interpretation; it is not a choice to "be right".
I'll expand my criteria just for you Dave: The only rebuttal necessary is to point out that tiltbillings' analysis contradicts the Paṭisambhidāmagga as well as every extant Buddhist tradition.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:The only rebuttal necessary is to point out that tiltbillings' analysis contradicts the Paṭisambhidāmagga as well as every extant Buddhist tradition.
That is not a rebuttal; not even close. That is an informal logical fallacy of appeal to authority. Appealing to the Psm does not show that my textual analysis is wrong in any way. At best all that does is shows that what I said does not agree with a particular, after the death of the Buddha text, that is championing a particular interpretation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Modus.Ponens »

I don't want to offend you with this question, Nana, it's just another angle from which to aproach the matter.

Are there two kinds of Nibbana?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:I don't want to offend you with this question, Nana, it's just another angle from which to aproach the matter.

Are there two kinds of Nibbana?
You mean a Buddha's nibbana as opposed to an arahant's nibbana?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Are there two kinds of Nibbana?
Except for the distinction between the nibbāna component with fuel remaining (saupādisesa nibbānadhātu) and the nibbāna component with no fuel remaining (anupādisesa nibbānadhātu), the Theravāda tradition has always maintained that there are not.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:That is not a rebuttal; not even close. That is an informal logical fallacy of appeal to authority.
Nonsense. Amongst Theravādins the Psm. is a valid source of knowledge. And since the Buddha's omniscience is also maintained by the Sarvāstivāda and Dharmaguptaka sects, it is a teaching upheld by every living ordination lineage.

Buddhism is not a secular philosophy. There is no valid means to either prove or disprove the Buddha's knowledge through logic or epistemology, short of attaining buddhahood oneself. The Buddha's knowledge is accepted based on scriptural authority and commentarial testimony, which are sources of refuge.
tiltbillings wrote:Appealing to the Psm does not show that my textual analysis is wrong in any way. At best all that does is shows that what I said does not agree with a particular, after the death of the Buddha text, that is championing a particular interpretation.
There is no Buddhist tradition which denies that omniscience was a part of the Buddha's awakening.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is not a rebuttal; not even close. That is an informal logical fallacy of appeal to authority.
Nonsense. Amongst Theravādins the Psm. is a valid source of knowledge. And since the Buddha's omniscience is also maintained by the Sarvāstivāda and Dharmaguptaka sects, it is a teaching upheld by every living ordination lineage.
You don't get it. While the Psm may be an authoritative texts among Theravadins, but that does not mean that it is accurately reflecting the suttas on every point in every detail. It might be, but that is for you to show, since that seems to be your claim. I am simply looking at the suttas, not at some text written sometime after the death of the Buddha. Also, I have been looking at the question of bodhi in the suttas, not omniscience. You have yet to show in the suttas that omniscience is tied directly, without question, to bodhi as a defining aspect of bodhi. This omniscience question is yours, not mine, and what I am looking at is what is in the suttas say, and the Psm is not a sutta. It is, rather, a later sectarian interpretation of the suttas. The Psm does not rebut what I have said, it not being a sutta, unless it shows in the suttas a clear, unquestioned, connexion of omniscience as being a defing aspect of bodhi. Show us that is the case.
tiltbillings wrote:Appealing to the Psm does not show that my textual analysis is wrong in any way. At best all that does is shows that what I said does not agree with a particular, after the death of the Buddha text, that is championing a particular interpretation.
There is no Buddhist tradition which denies that omniscience was a part of the Buddha's awakening.
Show us in the suttas where bodhi is tied directly, unequivocally as a defining aspect of awakening
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:You don't get it. While the Psm may be an authoritative texts among Theravadins, but that does not mean that it is accurately reflecting the suttas on every point in every detail. It might be, but that is for you to show, since that seems to be your claim.
You're the one making provocative statements explicitly asserting a view that opposes the received tradition. Therefore the onus is entirely on you to show that you are right and the tradition is wrong. You can't prove that: "The "enlightenment" -- bodhi -- of the arahant is no different from that of the Buddha," based on text-critical analysis. Nor can you prove that the doctrine of six types of buddha knowledge that are not shared by disciple arahants postdates the Buddha's parinibbāna. For that matter, you can't even prove that the Psm. was composed after the death of the Buddha. Your entire premise is based on speculation. A conceptual house of cards.
tiltbillings wrote:Also, I have been looking at the question of bodhi in the suttas, not omniscience. You have yet to show in the suttas that omniscience is tied directly, without question, to bodhi as a defining aspect of bodhi.
Your penchant for textual literalism on this issue is both amusing and rather ironic, given that you vehemently object to criticisms of Burmese Vipassanā that employ the strategy of rejecting it because terms such as "momentary concentration" or the technique of "labeling" aren't explicitly stated in the suttas.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You don't get it. While the Psm may be an authoritative texts among Theravadins, but that does not mean that it is accurately reflecting the suttas on every point in every detail. It might be, but that is for you to show, since that seems to be your claim.
You're the one making provocative statements explicitly asserting a view that opposes the received tradition.
I have simply reported what is said in the suttas, but I did not know that the suttas were provocative. You have not shown that what I said opposes the Theravada.
Therefore the onus is entirely on you to show that you are right and the tradition is wrong.
I am not claiming that the tradition is wrong, assumely your portrayal of it is accurate, which you have yet to establish. I am simply making a claim about what the suttas say, which is not a claim about what the tradition says about itself.
You can't prove that: "The "enlightenment" -- bodhi -- of the arahant is no different from that of the Buddha,"based on text-critical analysis.
I think I have gone some fair distance in showing that that claim is in line with what the suttas say, which is all I am claiming. Also, I am not doing "text critical analysis." I am doing basic textual exegesis.
Nor can you prove that the doctrine of six types of buddha knowledge that are not shared by disciple arahants postdates the Buddha's parinibbāna. For that matter, you can't even prove that the Psm. was composed after the death of the Buddha. Your entire premise is based on speculation. A conceptual house of cards.
Can you prove Psm was composed by Ven Sariputta? Can you show that the "double miracle" of water and fire are part of the sutta tradition? I'll go with the scholarship on this matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patisambhidamagga" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tiltbillings wrote:Also, I have been looking at the question of bodhi in the suttas, not omniscience. You have yet to show in the suttas that omniscience is tied directly, without question, to bodhi as a defining aspect of bodhi.
Your penchant for textual literalism on this issue is both amusing and rather ironic, given that you vehemently object to criticisms of Burmese Vipassanā that employ the strategy of rejecting it because terms such as "momentary concentration" or the technique of "labeling" aren't explicitly stated in the suttas.
This is not, of course, an argument.

Actually, I asked more than once that you show that omniscience is a necessary defining aspect of bodhi in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:I think I have gone some fair distance in showing that that claim is in line with what the suttas say, which is all I am claiming.
Okay, so what do you propose this knowledge described in AN 4.24 is the result of? AN 4.24:
  • Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know.
What do you propose this ability to know others' faculties is the result of? SN 6.1:
  • Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

Ñāṇa wrote:Okay, so what do you propose this knowledge described in AN 4.24 is the result of? AN 4.24:
  • Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know.
The cosmos is the all; whatever is in the all, that the Buddha directly knows. This is true of arahants as well, per MN 1.
Ñāṇa wrote:What do you propose this ability to know others' faculties is the result of? SN 6.1:
  • Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.
Is the eye of an awakened one the same as the divine eye?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:The cosmos is the all; whatever is in the all, that the Buddha directly knows. This is true of arahants as well, per MN 1.
Are you sure? Do you yourself have direct knowledge of what the Buddha is referring to in this passage from AN 4.24?
daverupa wrote:Is the eye of an awakened one the same as the divine eye?
The term used in SN 6.1 is buddhacakkhu. If SN 6.1 were referring to the divine eye, why wouldn't it explicitly say so, given that the divine eye is a specific type of higher knowledge described in detail elsewhere in the suttas?
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

Ñāṇa wrote:... Do you yourself have direct knowledge...
Delightful! I'm so glad you brought this up.
MN 95 wrote:There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views.

If a person has conviction, ...likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is my conviction...,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth.

"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."
Bharadvaja was talking about a received tradition, same as you have been.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
DAWN
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by DAWN »

daverupa wrote: The cosmos is the all; whatever is in the all, that the Buddha directly knows. This is true of arahants as well, per MN 1.
The cosmos is the all, The Dhamma is the no-all


SN 12.48
Lokayatika Sutta: The Cosmologist


"'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman."

"Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?"

"'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman."

"Then is everything a Oneness?"

"'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman."

"Then is everything a Manyness?"

"'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:... Do you yourself have direct knowledge...
Delightful! I'm so glad you brought this up.
It's a simple question: Do you yourself have direct knowledge of what the Buddha is referring to in this passage from AN 4.24, yes or no?
Post Reply