Path to Buddhahood

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:47 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tilt wrote:Now, show us where the Buddha directly defined the above [and now below] as aspects of bodhi?

That isn't an answer. I'll ask again: What do you propose this knowledge described in AN 4.24 is the result of? AN 4.24:

    Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know.

What do you propose this ability to know others' faculties is the result of? SN 6.1:

    Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As he did so, he saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world.
Given that the suttas are a very, very large collection of texts, it may be that the Buddha defined bodhi in terms of the contents of the above texts. If that is so, I would expect that it should be fairly easy to find such a definition.

Now, I have no problem with the idea of the Buddha's extraordinary powers, and certainly the extraordinary powers are what helped the Buddha attained bodhi, but as of yet I have not seen these extraordinary powers given as defining aspects of bodhi in the suttas, but what I have clearly shown is that the Buddha in the suttas repeatedly affirms in various ways is that here is the bodhi/sambodhi I have attained and you, too, can attain the same bodhi/sambodhi: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 4&#p149864
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:20 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Given that the suttas are a very, very large collection of texts, it may be that the Buddha defined bodhi in terms of the contents of the above texts. If that is so, I would expect that it should be fairly easy to find such a definition.

There are some interesting points made about why he's called the Tathāgata with reference to the same passage from AN 4.24 in the sutta that precedes it. But I don't have a translation of it handy. And it doesn't explicitly spell out what you require.

With regard to AN 4.24 the commentary states that the three phrases: "That I know" (tamahaṃ jānāmi), "That I have fully understood" (tamahaṃ abbhaññāsiṃ), and "That has been realized by the Tathāgata" (taṃ tathāgatassa viditaṃ), were said with reference to the Buddha's omniscience (sabbaññutabhūmi).

The commentary on SN 6.1 states that the term buddhacakkhu refers to the knowledge of penetration of others' faculties (indriyaparopariyattañāṇa) and the knowledge of the biases and underlying tendencies of sentient beings (āsayānusayañāṇa).

Are these examples of commentators reading more into the suttas than what is meaningfully implied by the passages in question? Personally, I think they are reasonable extrapolations. And since I don't directly know buddhañāṇa, I think it's prudent to err on the side of caution and defer to to the tradition on this issue.

tiltbillings wrote:Now, I have no problem with the idea of the Buddha's extraordinary powers, and certainly the extraordinary powers are what helped the Buddha attained bodhi, but as of yet I have not seen these extraordinary powers given as defining aspects of bodhi in the suttas, but what I have clearly shown is that the Buddha in the suttas repeatedly affirms in various ways is that here is the bodhi/sambodhi I have attained and you, too, can attain the same bodhi/sambodhi: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 4&#p149864

That message of liberation has always remained intact in the Theravāda teachings. Indeed, knowledge of each of the four noble truths results in elimination of the outflows (āsavakkhaya), but I think there's reason enough to tacitly accept the traditional understanding that the elimination of the outflows alone isn't sufficient to give rise to an entire dispensation of dhammavinaya. Thus, the Buddha's awakening required more prior development of the faculties and resulted in greater knowledge than just the knowledge of elimination (khayeñāṇa).
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:42 pm

Again, for all of that the Buddha clearly stated, as I have shown, that the (sam)bodhi he attained is the (sam)bodhi we can attain, which seems to very strongly preclude omniscience as being a defining characteristic of (sam)bodhi.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:11 am

Sorry for disturbing even it is very fascinating to follow the shares. From the OP: "Path to Buddhahood. Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?"
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:38 am

Hanzze wrote:Sorry for disturbing even it is very fascinating to follow the shares. From the OP: "Path to Buddhahood. Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?"


Neatly outlined here:


http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/jeffrey2.htm

and discussed at length here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1979&hilit=bodhisttva#p26121
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:48 am

Thanks for sharing. It's somehow a little similar to the discussion here.

Is it possible to answer it with yes or no, without the need of a meta-disscussion?

"Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?" or different asked, "Is there a path to Buddhahood outlined in the pali canon (taught and successed by the Buddha, if we take the palicanon as what was taught by him)"

(I guess we do not need to worry that there is no Path to Buddhahood, as there was a Buddha and it did not come so unconditioned.)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:56 am

Hanzze wrote:Thanks for sharing. It's somehow a little similar to the discussion here.

Is it possible to answer it with yes or no?

"Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?" or different asked, "Is there a path to Buddhahood outlined in the pali canon (taught and successed by the Buddha, if we take the palicanon as what was taught by him)"

(I guess we do not need to worry that there is no Path to Buddhahood, as there was a Buddha and he did not unconditioned.)
After the death of the Buddha a path to buddhahood developed, and that, over time, underwent further refinement, but it was never center stage, and it was never as highly elaborate as the Mahayana version, which, of course, underwent is own dramatic evolution.

as there was a Buddha and he did not unconditioned Huh?!?!?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:44 am

Hanzze wrote:Thanks for sharing. It's somehow a little similar to the discussion here.

Is it possible to answer it with yes or no, without the need of a meta-disscussion?

"Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?" or different asked, "Is there a path to Buddhahood outlined in the pali canon (taught and successed by the Buddha, if we take the palicanon as what was taught by him)"

Yes. It's explained in A Treatise on the Pāramīs by the Theravāda commentator Ācariya Dhammapāla.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
as there was a Buddha and he did not unconditioned Huh?!?!?

...come to be one. (very worldly, see it as an very convential expressen)

So we could say,

1. It does not seem that the Buddha wanted his disiples to follow his way but successed them a way he found.

2. And, yes there are also same path to Buddhahood been developed (by third, fourth...) in Theravada Tradion.

So further (if 2 is right), how do those developed Buddhapaths appear, are there good expalinings (to feed a possible desire of the OP).

Ñāṇa wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Thanks for sharing. It's somehow a little similar to the discussion here.

Is it possible to answer it with yes or no, without the need of a meta-disscussion?

"Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?" or different asked, "Is there a path to Buddhahood outlined in the pali canon (taught and successed by the Buddha, if we take the palicanon as what was taught by him)"

Yes. It's explained in A Treatise on the Pāramīs by the Theravāda commentator Ācariya Dhammapāla.

Fast :smile: thanks
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:Again, for all of that the Buddha clearly stated, as I have shown, that the (sam)bodhi he attained is the (sam)bodhi we can attain, which seems to very strongly preclude omniscience as being a defining characteristic of (sam)bodhi.

Your opinion has a very strong odor of anti-bodhisattvayāna polemics....
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:59 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Again, for all of that the Buddha clearly stated, as I have shown, that the (sam)bodhi he attained is the (sam)bodhi we can attain, which seems to very strongly preclude omniscience as being a defining characteristic of (sam)bodhi.

Your opinion has a very strong odor of anti-bodhisattvayāna polemics....
No, not at all. As I have written, as the suttas I have quoted show, the Buddha stated in various ways: "The (sam)bodhi I attained, you can atain."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:No, not at all. As I have written, as the suttas I have quoted show, the Buddha stated in various ways: "The (sam)bodhi I attained, you can atain."

The Pāli Nikāyas explicitly relate the narratives of previous buddhas. Arahant disciples don't rediscover the dhamma and start a dispensation. It's quite reasonable, even necessary, for the tradition to specify the distinctions between buddhas and arahant disciples as they have, whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:38 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:No, not at all. As I have written, as the suttas I have quoted show, the Buddha stated in various ways: "The (sam)bodhi I attained, you can atain."

The Pāli Nikāyas explicitly relate the narratives of previous buddhas. Arahant disciples don't rediscover the dhamma and start a dispensation. It's quite reasonable, even necessary, for the tradition to specify the distinctions between buddhas and arahant disciples as they have, whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not.
That is nice; however, as I have written, and what I have clearly shown by quoting the suttas, is that the Buddha in various, but direct, ways has stated: "The (sam)bodhi I attained, you can attain."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:45 am

tiltbillings wrote:That is nice; however, as I have written, and what I have clearly shown by quoting the suttas, is that the Buddha in various, but direct, ways has stated: "The (sam)bodhi I attained, you can attain."

You're just playing the tired sutta-only game that you decry in other instances.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:47 am

"The (sa)bodhi I attained, you can attain." Arahanthood and Buddhahood as well? Maybe there was so much understanding (maybe modesty), that this question even did not arise.
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:47 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is nice; however, as I have written, and what I have clearly shown by quoting the suttas, is that the Buddha in various, but direct, ways has stated: "The (sam)bodhi I attained, you can attain."

You're just playing the tired sutta-only game that you decry in other instances.
Not at all. i have no problem with the commentaries, etc., but that does not mean I cannot look at the what the suttas have to say about a particular subject.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:49 am

Hanzze wrote:"The (sa)bodhi I attained, you can attain." Arahanthood and Buddhahood as well? Maybe there was so much understanding, that this question even did not arise.
I have no idea what you mean here.
Read this:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9747&p=149864&#p149864
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:51 am

"I have no idea what you mean here." could be good covered by "Maybe there was so much understanding (less interest on additional ideas)"

(pejustice of a position one could have taken, could easy mislead and put an idea of intention behind them, which might be different in fact)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Not at all. i have no problem with the commentaries, etc., but that does not mean I cannot look at the what the suttas have to say about a particular subject.

You obviously do have a problem with the commentaries, etc.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:01 am

Hanzze wrote:"I have no idea what you mean here." could be good covered by "Maybe there was so much understanding (less interest on additional ideas)"

(pejustice of a position one could have taken, could easy mislead and put an idea of intention behind them, which might be different in fact)
Still, no idea what you mean here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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