literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

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literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby anjali » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:54 pm

Hello,

I was wondering if someone who knows pali can help me with a word-for-word translation of a short verse from the Mahaparinibbana sutta:
DN 3.36.png
DN 3.36.png (3.4 KiB) Viewed 927 times

You can find the verse here: http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/7D/3/3.36, #222. To help get the ball rolling, here is the verse with one word per line:

Asallīnena--?
cittena--citta?--heart/mind
vedanaṃ--vedana--feeling/sensation(pleasant unpleasant/neutral)
ajjhavāsayi--?
Pajjotasseva--?
nibbānaṃ--nirvana--unbinding/release/liberation
vimokkho--?
cetaso--?
ahū--?

The motivation for this is that I've found three different translations (Thanissaro, Sister Vajira & Francis Story, and Rhys Davids) that were different enough that I want to go back to the original Pali and do a more in-depth analysis. I'm guessing at some of the words. No clue on the others. Any help would be appreciated in translating these words!
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby Kare » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:44 pm

Instead of trying to give you a solution to your problem, I would like to congratulate you for seeing the problem!

This is just the kind of problem that made me start studying Pali many years ago. And once I got started, I found the studying and reading of Pali so fascinating and absorbing that I just couldn't stop - and I am still studying, reading and translating Pali texts.

So do not look to others for a solution. Start learning Pali, and you will find the solution for yourself.

Best wishes! :anjali:
Mettāya,
Kåre
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:17 am

Wohh, that is compassion!

I found the studying and reading of Pali so fascinating and absorbing that I just couldn't stop - and I am still studying, reading and translating Pali texts.

That maybe a danger.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby anjali » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:36 pm

Kare wrote:So do not look to others for a solution. Start learning Pali, and you will find the solution for yourself.

Best wishes! :anjali:


Good advice, but I just don't have the time or inclination to do so. In the quote I requested help on, because I've been reading Thanissaro Bhikku's Mind Like Fire Unbound (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/likefire/index.html), I'm especially interested in the sentence, "Pajjotasseva-nibbānaṃ vimokkho cetaso ahū."

I did a lot of digging the last couple of days. Here is my analysis of this sentence:

Pajjota--flame
eva--like
nibannam--unbinding (I prefer this meaning of nibbana, instead of cessation)
vimokkho--release
cetaso--citta
ahu--3rd person singular present tense of "to be" (aorist--whatever that means). The nearest equivalent in English in this context, I'm guessing, is "is his"

Here is my translation: "Like a flame's unbinding is his citta's release." Citta is an extremely problematic word which has been glossed mostly as "mind" in English. So, the full English translation would be: "Like a flame's unbinding is his mind's release."

Here are some other translations for comparison:
Thanissaro:
Like a flame's unbinding
was the liberation
of awareness.


Sister Vajira & Francis Story:
His mind, like a flame extinguished, finds release.


Rhys Davids:
E'en as a bright flame dies away, so was
His last deliverance from the bonds of life!
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby Hanzze » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:11 am

Great effort! Now, does it feel differnt?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby UhBaUnTaUh » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:38 pm

You should try to put all of Vibhatti--si yo am. yo naa hi sa nam. smaa hi sa nam. sming su, to your mouth and your mind.

Another, you should watch on Atthakatha when you can't going on-- the way that all of Tipitaka translator such as Buddhadasa, P.A. Payutto, Access Insign, always do .-

Asallīnenāti alīnena asaṃkuṭitena suvikasiteneva cittena. Vedanaṃ ajjhavāsayīti sato sampajāno hutvā māraṇantikaṃ vedanaṃ adhivāsesi, na vedanānuvattī hutvā ito cito ca samparivatti. Pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ, vimokkho cetaso ahūti yathā telañca paṭicca, vaṭṭiñca paṭicca pajjalanto pajjoto padīpo tesaṃ parikkhaye nibbāyati. Nibbuto ca katthaci gantvā na tiṭṭhati, aññadatthu antaradhāyati, adassanameva gacchati; evaṃ kilesābhisaṅkhāre nissāya pavattamāno khandhasantāno tesaṃ parikkhaye nibbāyati, nibbuto ca katthaci gantvā na tiṭṭhati, aññadatthu antaradhāyati, adassanameva gacchatīti dasseti. Tena vuttaṃ ‘‘nibbanti dhīrā yathāyaṃ padīpo’’ti (khu. pā. 6.15), ‘‘accī yathā vātavegena khittā’’ti (su. ni. 1080) ca ādi.


http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0508a2.att12.xml#M2.0345

Guide :

906.[dī. ni. 2.222] ‘‘Asallīnena cittena, vedanaṃ ajjhavāsayi;
Pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ, vimokkho cetaso ahu.

Bikkhu does ajjhavāsa with Asallīnacitta.(It ) iva nibbānaṃ of Pajjota, (because) vimokkha-ceta person ahu.

Translated :

Activist, who can endure every pain (at the end of life), can enlighten four noble truths such as candle light death.

--------------------------------------------------

edit : I have seen atop translated script, and I embarrassing to my unpretty translation.
edit2 : Bhikkhu, who can endure -> Activist, who can endure.
Last edited by UhBaUnTaUh on Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby anjali » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:57 pm

UhBaUnTaUh wrote:906.[dī. ni. 2.222] ‘‘Asallīnena cittena, vedanaṃ ajjhavāsayi;
Pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ, vimokkho cetaso ahu.

Bikkhu does ajjhavāsa with Asallīnacitta.(It ) iva nibbānaṃ of Pajjota, (because) vimokkha-ceta person ahu.

Translated :

Bhikkhu, who can endure every pain (at the end of life), can enlighten four noble truths such as candle light death.


Thank you for posting your translation. Not many people responded to my request. That you did so is much appreciated.
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby anjali » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:43 pm

Hanzze wrote:Great effort! Now, does it feel differnt?


Yes, it does feel different, if I get your meaning. By knowing the underlying alternatives for translation, and meditating on the which one felt intuitively more accurate--at least for me, I have a deeper connection with the dhamma contained in that verse.

Some points of note about the translation:
1. Anuruddha spoke the verse at the moment of the Buddha's passing. This lends more support to the notion of the present tense of the form of "to be". A couple of the verses were in past tense.
2. When using the notion of nibanna as unbinding, vimokko is better translated as release--at least to me. Unbinding/release seems more complimentary than unbinding/liberation or unbinding/deliverance.
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby UhBaUnTaUh » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:48 am

I'm sorry that I forgot to translate "Asallīnena cittena".

However, I have edited that post.
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:38 am

anjali wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Great effort! Now, does it feel differnt?


Yes, it does feel different.

In a sence of "my" or " in according to my present perception of words" it is now easier to take? Or is it more a kind of release by being able to understand other translations as well as the meaning is absorbet and perceptions weakened.
Does it leave stuff for controversy?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby anjali » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:49 pm

Hanzze wrote:In a sence of "my" or " in according to my present perception of words" it is now easier to take? Or is it more a kind of release by being able to understand other translations as well as the meaning is absorbet and perceptions weakened.
Does it leave stuff for controversy?


? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking. I've translated the verse to my satisfaction and I have more appreciation for how hard it is to translate one language into another and capture all the nuances of the original text.
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:07 pm

So there is now satisfaction and no more controversy? As you did it for satisfaction.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby anjali » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:41 pm

Hanzze wrote:So there is now satisfaction and no more controversy? As you did it for satisfaction.

Yes. :-)
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Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:50 am

Great :smile: and today?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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