Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:All right, buddho; however, "buddha" -- all by itself -- does not mean "one who awoke on his own".
It's hard to convey the sense of this middle voice form in English - I formulated it as I could. In Russian it's much easier to understand.
But also, no one can awaken another.
Buddha is called "Bodhetar" - one who awakens.
That is the Niddesa, but what do the suttas say?
Suttas don't have all the definitions. That why other texts, like Niddesa, are necessary.
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:If you were to simply acknowledge that your conclusion is both speculative and novel this discussion would have ended some time ago.
But it is not speculative and novel....
If you can't support your opinion with a quotation from a Theravāda treatise then, in the context of this forum, it's reasonable to consider it a novel, speculative opinion.
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:The Tipiṭaka is relatively early, conservative, and displays a high degree of internal consistency. There's much less variation than in the Aṭṭhakathā, etc. And in terms of doctrine, understanding the general developmental structure and general principles doesn't require literal adherence to every letter.
That is nice, but I am not looking at the Aṭṭhakathā, etc,...
You missed my point, which differentiates the Tipiṭaka from the Aṭṭhakathā.
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, whose set of commentaries, whose “systematic presentation” do we favor, and why?
"Dance with the one that brung ya." If one is practicing within the Theravāda then the Tipiṭaka is a source of refuge.
Your response does not really answer the questions you, yourself, brought up concerning the commentaries.
Sure it does. But given that you don't accept the Pāli Tipiṭaka as an authoritative source of knowledge there is no basis for meaningful discussion.
daverupa
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

The Tipiṭaka exhibits a swath of chronological development; the issue here seems to be summed up in terms of whether this corpus is taken as authoritative in toto, or whether that inherent chronological development is itself analyzed for text which seems likely to comprise an earlier strata.

I don't see a resolution where one side is going to be convinced. It is akin to the split between Orthodox/Conservative/Reform/Reconstructionist branches of Judaism with respect to the Talmud, but in terms of the Theravada Abhidhamma & Commentaries instead.

:shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:If you were to simply acknowledge that your conclusion is both speculative and novel this discussion would have ended some time ago.
But it is not speculative and novel....
If you can't support your opinion with a quotation from a Theravāda treatise then, in the context of this forum, it's reasonable to consider it a novel, speculative opinion.
You can consider what I have said however you wish. It does not matter to me, but what is rather evident other than merely gainsaying what I have said, you have, in fact, offered no actual sutta rebuttal to what I have said, which – according to your claims – I would think you would be able to easily do. But rather than an actual textual discussion, all we are getting from you here is merely gainsaying, which really does not make for much of a dialogue.
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:The Tipiṭaka is relatively early, conservative, and displays a high degree of internal consistency. There's much less variation than in the Aṭṭhakathā, etc. And in terms of doctrine, understanding the general developmental structure and general principles doesn't require literal adherence to every letter.
That is nice, but I am not looking at the Aṭṭhakathā, etc,...
You missed my point, which differentiates the Tipiṭaka from the Aṭṭhakathā.
I have not missed your point. It is simply not relevant to asking what the suttas say about a subject without filtering the suttas through the commentaries.

So, we can assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?

And if someone finds something in the suttas is not in the commentaries it is perforce wrong? Since the commentaries hardly, if at all, mention the Brahmanical/Upanishadic notions that some see the suttas are actually responding to, that really is not the case that the suttas are responding to Brahmanical/Upanishadic notions because the commentaries do not say support it?
Ñāṇa wrote:Sure it does. But given that you don't accept the Pāli Tipiṭaka as an authoritative source of knowledge there is no basis for meaningful discussion.
Of course the Pāli Tipiṭaka is is authoritative; however, that does not mean that one cannot look at parts of it, and that does not mean that it does not show strata of doctrinal development. Or are you saying that there is no doctrinal development of any sort to be found at all after the death of the Buddha?

Now, I still waiting for you to show me, with some detail, from the suttas that I am wrong and that you are correct.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by ancientbuddhism »

daverupa wrote:The Tipiṭaka exhibits a swath of chronological development; the issue here seems to be summed up in terms of whether this corpus is taken as authoritative in toto, or whether that inherent chronological development is itself analyzed for text which seems likely to comprise an earlier strata.

I don't see a resolution where one side is going to be convinced. It is akin to the split between Orthodox/Conservative/Reform/Reconstructionist branches of Judaism with respect to the Talmud, but in terms of the Theravada Abhidhamma & Commentaries instead.

:shrug:
Brown discusses this with reference to factions within the Catholic Church and biblical exegesis.

Biblical Exegesis and Church Doctrine, by Raymond E. Brown S.S.
  • “Reflections on the interplay between the biblical criticism employed by almost all Roman Catholic scholars and the doctrinal proclamations of the Catholic Church. An attempt is made to explain why liberals and ultraconservatives alike misinterpret the effects of biblical criticism on doctrine. Special attention is given to the positive results of contemporary biblical studies for the understanding of Mary, the Holy Spirit, and the Church.”
With reference to textual positivism, there was some discussion of this back on this thread.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:All right, buddho; however, "buddha" -- all by itself -- does not mean "one who awoke on his own".
It's hard to convey the sense of this middle voice form in English - I formulated it as I could. In Russian it's much easier to understand.
I understand what "middle voice"/reflective voice is. Given in Pali that attanopada is rarely used outside of poetry, your analysis is interesting, but so far it is not convincing. A.K. Warder (Introduction to Pali, page 314-5): "They are very rare in prose, a little less rare in verse."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

Hi Tilt,

I learned a long time ago that my arguments are not convincing for you. I am posting this rather for other participants of the forum.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Tilt,

I learned a long time ago that my arguments are not convincing for you. I am posting this rather for other participants of the forum.
The problem is you do not really make an argument for what you assert; so, yes, I am not often convinced by what you say. I am posting this just to let you know.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:The problem is you do not really make an argument for what you assert; so, yes, I am not often convinced by what you say.
Evidently we have very different references for arguments.
I mostly draw upon the earliest possible Pali sources which would clarify the question - including Niddesa, Patisambhidamagga, Vibhanga, etc.
You mostly draw upon English translations of the suttas and the opinions of Western scholars.

Since the basic Western commentary - Pali-English dictionary - is already embedded in your referential basis, and you don't recognize the authority of early Pali exegetical texts, we can agree on the simple and obvious statements from the Sutta, and not much more than that.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is you do not really make an argument for what you assert; so, yes, I am not often convinced by what you say.
Evidently we have very different references for arguments.
I mostly draw upon the earliest possible Pali sources which would clarify the question - including Niddesa, Patisambhidamagga, Vibhanga, etc.
You mostly draw upon English translations of the suttas and the opinions of Western scholars.
Not necessarily so; however, appealing to the texts you referenced is not without its historical problems.
Since the basic Western commentary - Pali-English dictionary - is already embedded in your referential basis, and you don't recognize the authority of early Pali exegetical texts, we can agree on the simple and obvious statements from the Sutta, and not much more than that.
It is quite something. Next you'll tell me what I had for dinner and what my favorite color is. I have no problem with the authority of the "early" exegetical texts, but I do not see them as being the necessary final word on what is found in the suttas, and I have yet to see anyone here make an actual case that the suttas must, without question in all cases, be filtered through the "early Pali exegetical texts" to truly understand what they are saying. And certainly neither you nor Geoff have presented a reasonable counter argument to what I have presented, which is that in the suttas the Buddha taught that bodhi, awakening, he attained we can attain.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:I have no problem with the authority of the "early" exegetical texts, but I do not see them as being the necessary final word on what is found in the suttas, and I have yet to see anyone here make an actual case that the suttas must, without question in all cases, be filtered through the "early Pali exegetical texts" to truly understand what they are saying.
Did I say that these texts are necessary the final word?
I will repeat - I mostly draw upon the earliest possible Pali sources. The earlier the text, the more reliable it is. If the suttas don't give a clearcut definition of something, then the next best choice are early exegetical texts. After that, the next choice is Atthakatha, etc. The modern works are usually least reliable.

So clearly there's a difference in our referential bases.

Since the suttas are quite laconic, there's necessarily a filter for their full understanding - be it Pali-English dictionary, early exegetical works, or just trendy guesswork.
It's better to choose the filters with care.
And certainly neither you nor Geoff have presented a reasonable counter argument to what I have presented, which is that in the suttas the Buddha taught that bodhi, awakening, he attained we can attain.
Did I present a counter argument? I pointed out a contradiction in the Ven. Bodhi's passage you quoted.

Surely we can attain bodhi, as defined in Niddesa, but that would be only a part of the Samma-sambodhi of the Buddha.
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Dmytro wrote:Since the suttas are quite laconic...
The suttas are that vague to you, really?
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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vinasp
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

"Bhikkhus, these eight things, developed and cultivated, if unarisen do not
arise apart from the appearance of a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Perfectly
Enlightened One. What eight? Right view ... right concentration. These
eight things ..." [ BB, CD, p.1533, SN 45.14]

My very controversial interpretation.

The arising of the path is stream-entry. The noble eightfold path is the stream.
The path only arises on the appearance of a Tathagata. This means that the awakened
mind must appear first. Then the process of transformation can begin. It takes, on
average, about two weeks.

The stream-enterer is said to be destined for awakening. He does not have to do
anything, it is all automatic. The process completes itself. In fact, it cannot
be stopped or prevented. So, everything is already decided in the moment of the
opening of the Dhamma Eye.

Regards, Vincent.
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

ancientbuddhism wrote:The suttas are that vague to you, really?
Did I say that they are vague to me?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:The suttas are that vague to you, really?
Did I say that they are vague to me?
He said, laconically.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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