Path to Buddhahood

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Dmytro » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:05 am

Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.
Yes; however, are all those "knowledges" bodhi?.


Yes, as explained in Pasadika sutta from Digha Nikaya and other suttas, Tathagata "awoke to" or comprehended (abhisambujjhati) all that (I don't know of an English translation on-line):

Yañca kho, cunda, sadevakassa lokassa samārakassa sabrahmakassa sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya diṭṭhaṃ sutaṃ mutaṃ viññātaṃ pattaṃ pariyesitaṃ anuvicaritaṃ manasā, sabbaṃ tathāgatena abhisambuddhaṃ, tasmā ‘tathāgato’ti vuccati. Yañca, cunda, rattiṃ tathāgato anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhiṃ abhisambujjhati, yañca rattiṃ anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā parinibbāyati, yaṃ etasmiṃ antare bhāsati lapati niddisati.

And as Atthakatha explains, there is an 'omniscience' (sabbaññuta) involved:
Sabbaññutaññāṇapadaṭṭhānaṃ maggañāṇaṃ maggañāṇapadaṭṭhānañca sabbaññutaññāṇaṃ ‘‘sammāsambodhī’’ti vuccati.

Speaking about filtering - it's interesting that specifically in the Western tradition "Buddha" and "Bodhi" are interpreted as having to do with "Awakening", as if from sleep.

that is naught more than your opinion

It's hard to maintain a respectful conversation with such remarks of yours.
You voice an opinion, it is called that and you take umbrage?


Well, I'm not going to argue with you. And I will probably be less likely to engage in conversations with you. It is not about one remark, but about many.
I hope that in the future moderators on this forum will be more respectful and considerate.

Can you provide a definition of 'bodhi' from the suttas?
I already have in the linked text.


I have not found there a definition. Definition is "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word".
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:27 am

Dmytro wrote:
Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.
Yes; however, are all those "knowledges" bodhi?.


Yes, as explained in Pasadika sutta from Digha Nikaya and other suttas, Tathagata "awoke to" or comprehended (abhisambujjhati) all that (I don't know of an English translation on-line):
If you are going to quote a hunk of Pali, you need to supply a translatiuon of the Pali. It would also help to give either the PTS references or the traditional reference notations.

Yañca kho, cunda, sadevakassa lokassa samārakassa sabrahmakassa sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya diṭṭhaṃ sutaṃ mutaṃ viññātaṃ pattaṃ pariyesitaṃ anuvicaritaṃ manasā, sabbaṃ tathāgatena abhisambuddhaṃ, tasmā ‘tathāgato’ti vuccati. Yañca, cunda, rattiṃ tathāgato anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhiṃ abhisambujjhati, yañca rattiṃ anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā parinibbāyati, yaṃ etasmiṃ antare bhāsati lapati niddisati.DN iii 135; TLDB page 436, para 29.

And as Atthakatha explains, there is an 'omniscience' (sabbaññuta) involved:
Sabbaññutaññāṇapadaṭṭhānaṃ maggañāṇaṃ maggañāṇapadaṭṭhānañca sabbaññutaññāṇaṃ ‘‘sammāsambodhī’’ti vuccati.


Speaking about filtering - it's interesting that specifically in the Western tradition "Buddha" and "Bodhi" are interpreted as having to do with "Awakening", as if from sleep.
However, this neatly makes a point about back-reading into the suttas from the commentaries. Omniscience? Maybe, but that still does not make omniscience a necessary aspect of bodhi. "Omniscience" -- or something like it -- can be seen as a necessary tool for awakening, but it is not the actual awakening it self. Or, heaven for bid, the suttas are not totally, absolutely consistent, which then requires commentaries (themselves not totally, absolutely consistent) to try to smooth out the bumps.

    But as soon as my knowing and seeing how things are, was quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the Four Noble Truths, then I claimed in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, its princes and men to have discovered the full Awakening that is supreme. Knowing and seeing arose in me thus: 'My heart's deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being." SN v 423

    "And what have I [the Buddha] taught? 'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukkha... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening [sambodhi], to nibbana. This is why I have taught them. SN v 437 cf DN i 189

    "The thought occurred to me, 'I [the Buddha] have attained this path to Awakening [bodhi], i.e., from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming.

    From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Thus is the cessation of this entire mass of stress. Cessation, cessation.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.
    SN ii 105

    Then the Bodhisatta Vipassi thought: 'I have found the insight way to sambodhi, namely: "By the cessation of mind-and-body consciousness ceases ...And thus this whole mass of suffering ceases." And the thought: "Cessation, cessation", there arose in the Bodhisatta Vipassi, with insight into things never realized before, knowledge, vision, awareness, and light. DN ii 35

    Bhikkhus, the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82

    Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223

    A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana]. MN i 104

    The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1

    There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. MN i 15

    "So I [the Buddha], monks being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...."
    ...

    "Then the group of five monks, being thus exhorted, this instructed by me
    [the Buddha], being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana [nirvana] -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...." Majjhima Nikaya I 167 and 173.

    "Come, this is the Way, this is the course I [the Buddha] have followed until, having realized by my own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into Brahma-faring, I have made it known. Come you too, follow likewise, so that you also, having realized by your own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into the Brahma-faring, may abide in it." -- AN I 168-69.


    He [the Buddha] says: 'Here! This is the path, this is the practice that, having practiced, I make known the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life, having directly known & realized it for myself. Come! You, too, practice in such a way that you will remain in the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life [attaining nibbana], having directly known & realized it for yourselves.' Thus the Teacher teaches the Dhamma, and others practice, for Suchness. And there are countless hundreds of them, countless thousands of them, countless hundreds of thousands of them. This being the case … this business of going-forth … one that benefits countless beings…. AN I 168-69. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 3-060.html

    'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"

    'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage
    [yogakkhemo=nibbana]. 'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."' -- AN II ii 5.

    "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana." SN IV 251 and IV 321

    "The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship." SN IV 359

    "Whoever frees himself from the passions of lust, hatred, and delusion, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagatam), awake (buddham), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57

    Dhammapada 419: "Who knows in every way the passing away and rebirth of beings, unattached, well-gone [sugata], awake [buddham], That one I [the Buddha] call brahmana."

    The Buddha speaking: The Blessed Lord is awakened [buddho] and teaches a doctrine of awakening [bodhi], he is self-restrained and teaches a doctrine of self-restraint, he is calm and teaches a doctrine of calm. He has gone beyond and teaches a doctrine of going beyond, he has attained nibbana and teaches a doctrine for gaining nibbana. DN iii 54-5 cf MN ii 235

In other words: I, the Buddha, through my own efforts attained sambodhi, you too, making the same effort can win that very same goal. While the powers of the Buddha are significantly great in order to break through the bonds of avijja, the Buddha is not claiming here some sort of different awakening for himself from that which he teaches, anymore than he is claiming a different self-restraint or a different nibbana.

Can you provide a definition of 'bodhi' from the suttas?
I already have in the linked text.


I have not found there a definition. Definition is "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word".
The defintion is in the usage.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:55 am

Dmytro wrote:
I’m just trying to understand what the disconnect is with what is evident in the suttas mentioned.


Is there a disconnect?


Could be. What is the difference between the bodhi of arahants and the attributes of a sammāsambuddha?

Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:To quote the aṭṭha to a sutta is relatively easy, but as to hermeneutical approaches for discussing it there is consideration of the context in the sutta, other readings, its relevance to other materials and looking at what those academics have to say.


Surely.


My comment is a little edited here, but we may agree, at least in part, on hermeneutics

Dmytro wrote:
what those pesky academics have to say with their trendy guesswork.


I find it strange that, giving references to lots of academic works, you call academics 'pesky'.
They conduct an awesome work.


You had mentioned trendy guesswork earlier, I wondered to what or who that was pointing to. My opinion would be mixed I suppose. There are some writers on popular "Buddhist" topics, Stephen Batchelor as one, who I think make reckless claims. Otherwise there are others who, as you say, do awesome work, such as Norman, Gombrich, Kalupahana.

I appreciate that you do not rely on translations, but as far as translators go I think B. Bodhi has done a marvelous job. I think it is refreshing that a translator will cite the comy with reservation to his critique of them when needed.
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby vinasp » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:07 am

Hi Dmytro,

Quote:"Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one."
[in ref to MN 36]

In my opinion those three knowledges are very suspect. How can we take the first two
seriously, when Gotama has not yet broken through to the four noble truths, and not
yet seen the path which eliminates the asava's? He is still a puthujjana at that point.
Only the third knowledge removes ignorance.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby daverupa » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:08 am

Dmytro wrote:And as Atthakatha explains,


This goes to the point, namely that such a later source, if set aside, means we ought to conclude what exactly with respect to suttas such as the following:

SN 56.5 wrote:Bhikkhus, whatever ascetics or brahmins in the past fully awakened to things as they really are, all fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins in the future will fully awaken to things as they really are, all will fully awaken to the four noble truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins at present have fully awaken to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:26 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
I have not found there a definition. Definition is "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word".
The defintion is in the usage.


Indeed. This is why a complete dictionary e.g. Oxford English, gives so many literary sources, as does the PED (albeit less so). If the commentaries are resorted to for this purpose they are an insufficient source.
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:03 pm

daverupa wrote:
Dmytro wrote:And as Atthakatha explains,


This goes to the point, namely that such a later source, if set aside, means we ought to conclude what exactly with respect to suttas such as the following:

SN 56.5 wrote:Bhikkhus, whatever ascetics or brahmins in the past fully awakened to things as they really are, all fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins in the future will fully awaken to things as they really are, all will fully awaken to the four noble truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins at present have fully awaken to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are.


The aṭṭa for 56.5 seems to be silent. However for 56.6 the aṭṭha signifies that those “ascetics and brahmins” (past, future, present) that have revealed themselves to have fully awakened … (abhisambuddhaṃ pakāsesunti), refers them as ascetics that have grasped (samaṇagahaṇena gahitā) buddha-omniscience (sabbaññū + buddhā).

Because 56.6 is significant from 56.5 only by pakāseti, this would only seem to indicate that the abhisambuddha can be endowed with additional attributes, if sabbaññubuddhā can really be drawn from pakāseti as the aṭṭha claims, but not necessarily.
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:53 pm

I'm sorry that i enter is your discussion, but every time that is hear 'buddha omnicience' i feel that in the word 'buddha' you putt an atta. Omnicience of The Buddha have no atta.
The Buddha is that who knows, The Buddha nature is omnicient, like a canvas is omncient of picture.
But one Buddha is not omnicient. Why? Cause Samsara wahe no begining and no end, it's impossible for the one who is limitated by his rupa to be omnicient of whoole samsara.
After parinibbana, perharps, before - not.

It's possible to know the Ground and how any building is constructed on it, but it's impossible to know all that is constructed on the ground. Why? because the Ground have no limit.

IMHO
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Nyana » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:20 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I may not have proven anything,...

Yet you have made definitive statements as though your opinion was truly established and incontrovertible....
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:38 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I may not have proven anything,...

Yet you have made definitive statements as though your opinion was truly established and incontrovertible....
And yet you offer nothing to further our understanding or to support your opinion. Whether or not my offering is "truly established and incontrovertible" is to be seen. At least I have requested that it be challenged.

Also, now for the fourth time, I ask you: So, we can assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Dmytro » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:35 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:What is the difference between the bodhi of arahants and the attributes of a sammāsambuddha?


Sammāsambuddha has attained sammāsambodhi, which includes two more knowledges, as described in Mahasaccaka sutta. In other words, Sammāsambuddha has omniscience, as described in Pasadika sutta cited above, and other suttas.

ancientbuddhism wrote:There are some writers on popular "Buddhist" topics, Stephen Batchelor as one, who I think make reckless claims. Otherwise there are others who, as you say, do awesome work, such as Norman, Gombrich, Kalupahana.


I certainly agree with you.

I appreciate that you do not rely on translations, but as far as translators go I think B. Bodhi has done a marvelous job. I think it is refreshing that a translator will cite the comy with reservation to his critique of them when needed.


I also consult the excellent translations by Bhikkhu Bodhi, and appreciate his marvelous job.

He seems to be the last representative of the school of Pali interpretation which existed in Sri Lanka: Ven. Nyanatiloka, Ven. Nyanaponika, Soma Thera, etc.
I don't see any collective that would continue this work.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:03 pm

Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:What is the difference between the bodhi of arahants and the attributes of a sammāsambuddha?


Sammāsambuddha has attained sammāsambodhi, which includes two more knowledges, as described in Mahasaccaka sutta. In other words, Sammāsambuddha has omniscience, as described in Pasadika sutta cited above, and other suttas.


It may be that some are saying the same thing, only with different cautions. Tilt has shown sambodhi as an epithet of liberation viz. the absence of greed, hatred and delusion, which is the property of both the sammāsambuddha and arahant. What you and Ñāṇa have shown is that the sammāsambuddha has additional attributes viz. originator of the path and paranormal powers.

What I think is a ‘disconnect’ in the discussion may be talking past what is common knowledge all around. We know that liberation is the ending of the āsavā, and that it does not require the attributes of the sammāsambuddha; yet both possess sambodhi, an epithet of their liberation from the āsavā.
Katamo ca bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo: samatho ca vipassanā ca. Ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave asaṅkhatagāmī maggo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Calm and insight. This, bhikkhus, is called the path leading to the unconditioned.” SN. 43.2 – Samathavipassanāsuttaṃ

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:06 pm

Dmytro wrote:I did not intend to show that. Yet such characterization is clearly described, for example, in Mahasaccaka sutta. Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.

I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...

Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html for example.


:anjali:
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:12 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Dmytro wrote:I did not intend to show that. Yet such characterization is clearly described, for example, in Mahasaccaka sutta. Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.

I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...

Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html for example.


See SN ii 210-214; TCDB vol 1 pages 671-4:

I [the Buddha], monks dwell, having actualized here and now the higher knowledges [abinna], freed through the heart/mind [cetovimutti] and freed through wisdom [pa~n~navimutti]. Kassapa, too, monks, dwells having actualized here and now the higher knowledges, freed through the heart/mind and freed through wisdom. - SN II, 214

What is of interest in this text is what precedes this passage. There are 15 items listed, with the above quote being the very last one listed, and it is the only one that is indicative of awakening. The first 9 have to do with the attainment of jhana meditation, the remaining six are the abhiññás.

See:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm

• (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha),
• (2) divine ear (dibba-sota),
• (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñána),
• (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivásánussati),
• (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu),
• (6) extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya).


Now, the Buddha does not say his attainments are greater or that Kassapa’s are lesser. The exact same language is being used, and this is not unique in the Pali suttas. If anything, it indicates an equality.

Number 6 (#15 in the Kassapa list and the quote above), however, is not worded in terms of the extinction of the cankers (asavas), in this list, but in terms of attainment of knowledge, liberation and wisdom. What the Buddha knows, Kassapa, too, knows (in terms of the destruction of the asavas and the Four Noble Truths).

The preceding 14 items are worded in this way:

Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I [the Buddha] wish to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, I can. Kassapa, too, to whatever extent he wishes to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, he can. Sn II 210-14.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:22 pm

Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:What is the difference between the bodhi of arahants and the attributes of a sammāsambuddha?


Sammāsambuddha has attained sammāsambodhi, which includes two more knowledges, as described in Mahasaccaka sutta. In other words, Sammāsambuddha has omniscience, as described in Pasadika sutta cited above, and other suttas.
But the Pasadika does not say "omniscience." That is a commentarial back-reading into the sutta. Essentially, the Pasadika is saying that whatever a being may experience, the Buddha can know that. What Pasadika is saying is not at all unlike the monk who can understand, encompass the minds of "other beings and persons," as we see in SN V 265; TCDB vol 2 1727.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby vinasp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:36 am

Hi everyone,

The Buddhist Dictionary (Nyanatiloka) entry for 'abhinna' (p.2) says that five of
the six are mundane (lokiya), only the last one is supramundane (lokuttara).

The term 'lokiya' indicates that they can be attained by ordinary men (puthujjano),
non-buddhist ascetics frequently claimed such powers.

Is this stated clearly anywhere in the five Nikaya's?

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby vinasp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:40 am

Hi everyone,

It seems that Maurice Walshe was also of the opinion that the first five higher
knowledges are mundane. See his note 136 to the Samannaphala Sutta, [Walshe 1987, p.547]

136."All the preceding 'fruits' have led up to this, which as RD points out, is
exclusively Buddhist..." - [Walshe analyses the sequence into 13 stages.]

Stage 12."The five mundane forms of 'higher knowledge' (abhinna), (verses 87-96)."
Stage 13."The realization of the Four Noble Truths, the destruction of the corruptions
(= the sixth, supramundane, abhinna), and the attainment of Arahantship (verses 97-98)."

That these first five knowledges are mundane is very clear in the Samannaphala Sutta
sequence (DN 2).

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

He discerns 'this is the way leading to the cessation of stress ...', this means that
he sees the noble eightfold path, enters it, and by developing it, he attains awakening.

So the five previous 'higher knowledges' were attained while the bhikkhu was still an
ordinary man.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Ryuejaku » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:49 am

ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?


Of course there is,

Buddha didnt follow Buddhism to attain Nirvana . Buddhism is how he described it on an external lvl as best he could.

Mahavira attained Niravana/Moksha noth by the use of Buddhism.
50-70 more not bad in no rush
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:52 am

Ryuejaku wrote:
ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?


Of course there is,

Buddha didnt follow Buddhism to attain Nirvana . Buddhism is how he described it on an external lvl as best he could.

Mahavira attained Niravana/Moksha noth by the use of Buddhism.
Actually, you seem not to understand the question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Dmytro » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:44 am

Hi Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...

Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html for example.


The only example I know is Ven. Mahakassapa. And he doesn't have the Buddha's omniscience, described, for example, in Pasadika and Kalaka sutta:

"The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
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