Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by ancientbuddhism »

tiltbillings wrote:
I have not found there a definition. Definition is "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word".
The defintion is in the usage.
Indeed. This is why a complete dictionary e.g. Oxford English, gives so many literary sources, as does the PED (albeit less so). If the commentaries are resorted to for this purpose they are an insufficient source.
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by ancientbuddhism »

daverupa wrote:
Dmytro wrote:And as Atthakatha explains,
This goes to the point, namely that such a later source, if set aside, means we ought to conclude what exactly with respect to suttas such as the following:
SN 56.5 wrote:Bhikkhus, whatever ascetics or brahmins in the past fully awakened to things as they really are, all fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins in the future will fully awaken to things as they really are, all will fully awaken to the four noble truths as they really are. Whatever ascetics or brahmins at present have fully awaken to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are.
The aṭṭa for 56.5 seems to be silent. However for 56.6 the aṭṭha signifies that those “ascetics and brahmins” (past, future, present) that have revealed themselves to have fully awakened … (abhisambuddhaṃ pakāsesunti), refers them as ascetics that have grasped (samaṇagahaṇena gahitā) buddha-omniscience (sabbaññū + buddhā).

Because 56.6 is significant from 56.5 only by pakāseti, this would only seem to indicate that the abhisambuddha can be endowed with additional attributes, if sabbaññubuddhā can really be drawn from pakāseti as the aṭṭha claims, but not necessarily.
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DAWN
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by DAWN »

I'm sorry that i enter is your discussion, but every time that is hear 'buddha omnicience' i feel that in the word 'buddha' you putt an atta. Omnicience of The Buddha have no atta.
The Buddha is that who knows, The Buddha nature is omnicient, like a canvas is omncient of picture.
But one Buddha is not omnicient. Why? Cause Samsara wahe no begining and no end, it's impossible for the one who is limitated by his rupa to be omnicient of whoole samsara.
After parinibbana, perharps, before - not.

It's possible to know the Ground and how any building is constructed on it, but it's impossible to know all that is constructed on the ground. Why? because the Ground have no limit.

IMHO
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:I may not have proven anything,...
Yet you have made definitive statements as though your opinion was truly established and incontrovertible....
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I may not have proven anything,...
Yet you have made definitive statements as though your opinion was truly established and incontrovertible....
And yet you offer nothing to further our understanding or to support your opinion. Whether or not my offering is "truly established and incontrovertible" is to be seen. At least I have requested that it be challenged.

Also, now for the fourth time, I ask you: So, we can assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

ancientbuddhism wrote:What is the difference between the bodhi of arahants and the attributes of a sammāsambuddha?
Sammāsambuddha has attained sammāsambodhi, which includes two more knowledges, as described in Mahasaccaka sutta. In other words, Sammāsambuddha has omniscience, as described in Pasadika sutta cited above, and other suttas.
ancientbuddhism wrote:There are some writers on popular "Buddhist" topics, Stephen Batchelor as one, who I think make reckless claims. Otherwise there are others who, as you say, do awesome work, such as Norman, Gombrich, Kalupahana.


I certainly agree with you.
I appreciate that you do not rely on translations, but as far as translators go I think B. Bodhi has done a marvelous job. I think it is refreshing that a translator will cite the comy with reservation to his critique of them when needed.
I also consult the excellent translations by Bhikkhu Bodhi, and appreciate his marvelous job.

He seems to be the last representative of the school of Pali interpretation which existed in Sri Lanka: Ven. Nyanatiloka, Ven. Nyanaponika, Soma Thera, etc.
I don't see any collective that would continue this work.
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:What is the difference between the bodhi of arahants and the attributes of a sammāsambuddha?
Sammāsambuddha has attained sammāsambodhi, which includes two more knowledges, as described in Mahasaccaka sutta. In other words, Sammāsambuddha has omniscience, as described in Pasadika sutta cited above, and other suttas.
It may be that some are saying the same thing, only with different cautions. Tilt has shown sambodhi as an epithet of liberation viz. the absence of greed, hatred and delusion, which is the property of both the sammāsambuddha and arahant. What you and Ñāṇa have shown is that the sammāsambuddha has additional attributes viz. originator of the path and paranormal powers.

What I think is a ‘disconnect’ in the discussion may be talking past what is common knowledge all around. We know that liberation is the ending of the āsavā, and that it does not require the attributes of the sammāsambuddha; yet both possess sambodhi, an epithet of their liberation from the āsavā.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by mikenz66 »

Dmytro wrote: I did not intend to show that. Yet such characterization is clearly described, for example, in Mahasaccaka sutta. Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.
I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...
Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for example.


:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:
Dmytro wrote: I did not intend to show that. Yet such characterization is clearly described, for example, in Mahasaccaka sutta. Buddha attained three knowledges in his Samma-sambodhi, while Arahants attain just one.
I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...
Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for example.
See SN ii 210-214; TCDB vol 1 pages 671-4:

I [the Buddha], monks dwell, having actualized here and now the higher knowledges [abinna], freed through the heart/mind [cetovimutti] and freed through wisdom [pa~n~navimutti]. Kassapa, too, monks, dwells having actualized here and now the higher knowledges, freed through the heart/mind and freed through wisdom. - SN II, 214

What is of interest in this text is what precedes this passage. There are 15 items listed, with the above quote being the very last one listed, and it is the only one that is indicative of awakening. The first 9 have to do with the attainment of jhana meditation, the remaining six are the abhiññás.

See:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

• (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha),
• (2) divine ear (dibba-sota),
• (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñána),
• (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivásánussati),
• (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu),
• (6) extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya).


Now, the Buddha does not say his attainments are greater or that Kassapa’s are lesser. The exact same language is being used, and this is not unique in the Pali suttas. If anything, it indicates an equality.

Number 6 (#15 in the Kassapa list and the quote above), however, is not worded in terms of the extinction of the cankers (asavas), in this list, but in terms of attainment of knowledge, liberation and wisdom. What the Buddha knows, Kassapa, too, knows (in terms of the destruction of the asavas and the Four Noble Truths).

The preceding 14 items are worded in this way:

Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I [the Buddha] wish to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, I can. Kassapa, too, to whatever extent he wishes to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, he can. Sn II 210-14.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:What is the difference between the bodhi of arahants and the attributes of a sammāsambuddha?
Sammāsambuddha has attained sammāsambodhi, which includes two more knowledges, as described in Mahasaccaka sutta. In other words, Sammāsambuddha has omniscience, as described in Pasadika sutta cited above, and other suttas.
But the Pasadika does not say "omniscience." That is a commentarial back-reading into the sutta. Essentially, the Pasadika is saying that whatever a being may experience, the Buddha can know that. What Pasadika is saying is not at all unlike the monk who can understand, encompass the minds of "other beings and persons," as we see in SN V 265; TCDB vol 2 1727.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
vinasp
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The Buddhist Dictionary (Nyanatiloka) entry for 'abhinna' (p.2) says that five of
the six are mundane (lokiya), only the last one is supramundane (lokuttara).

The term 'lokiya' indicates that they can be attained by ordinary men (puthujjano),
non-buddhist ascetics frequently claimed such powers.

Is this stated clearly anywhere in the five Nikaya's?

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

It seems that Maurice Walshe was also of the opinion that the first five higher
knowledges are mundane. See his note 136 to the Samannaphala Sutta, [Walshe 1987, p.547]

136."All the preceding 'fruits' have led up to this, which as RD points out, is
exclusively Buddhist..." - [Walshe analyses the sequence into 13 stages.]

Stage 12."The five mundane forms of 'higher knowledge' (abhinna), (verses 87-96)."
Stage 13."The realization of the Four Noble Truths, the destruction of the corruptions
(= the sixth, supramundane, abhinna), and the attainment of Arahantship (verses 97-98)."

That these first five knowledges are mundane is very clear in the Samannaphala Sutta
sequence (DN 2).

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

He discerns 'this is the way leading to the cessation of stress ...', this means that
he sees the noble eightfold path, enters it, and by developing it, he attains awakening.

So the five previous 'higher knowledges' were attained while the bhikkhu was still an
ordinary man.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Ryuejaku »

ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?
Of course there is,

Buddha didnt follow Buddhism to attain Nirvana . Buddhism is how he described it on an external lvl as best he could.

Mahavira attained Niravana/Moksha noth by the use of Buddhism.
50-70 more not bad in no rush
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ryuejaku wrote:
ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?
Of course there is,

Buddha didnt follow Buddhism to attain Nirvana . Buddhism is how he described it on an external lvl as best he could.

Mahavira attained Niravana/Moksha noth by the use of Buddhism.
Actually, you seem not to understand the question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...
Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for example.
The only example I know is Ven. Mahakassapa. And he doesn't have the Buddha's omniscience, described, for example, in Pasadika and Kalaka sutta:

"The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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