Path to Buddhahood

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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:04 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...

Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html for example.


The only example I know is Ven. Mahakassapa. And he doesn't have the Buddha's omniscience, described, for example, in Pasadika and Kalaka sutta:

"The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
The problem is, however, that that is not omniscience.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby vinasp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:00 am

Hi everyone,

"It is impossible, monks, it cannot come to pass, that in one world-system at
one and the same time there should arise two Arahants who are Fully Enlightened
Ones. But, monks, it is quite possible for a single Arahant, a Fully Enlightened
One, to arise."

[PTS, Gradual Sayings, p.26, Chapter XV, #5. Translation by F L Woodward.]
[DPR Anguttara, book 1, #277]

My interpretation: Quite correct. In my world-system it is impossible for two arahants
to arise. And in your world-system, it is also impossible for two arahants to arise.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:17 am

Dmytro wrote:Hi Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...

Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html for example.


The only example I know is Ven. Mahakassapa.

He may be the only one discussed in detail, but I think you're missing the point that in a number of Suttas on the Gradual Training it is described as a generic thing that a follower of the Buddha does, and is clearly not exclusive to the Buddha.
mikenz66 wrote:
And he doesn't have the Buddha's omniscience, described, for example, in Pasadika and Kalaka sutta:

"The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

No, but no-one is claiming that. The question is, apart from "omniscience" and related skills, is there any difference in the awakening/liberation/whatever?

:anjali:
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby vinasp » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:17 am

Hi everyone,

"The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know." - [Kalaka Sutta.]

My reading: Whatever in the totality of one's experience, is seen, heard, sensed, cognized:
That do I know. That I directly know. The Buddha knows only the things in his own experience.

The whole point of this sutta is that the Buddha sees visible forms, but: "does not
conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an unseen;
he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seeing'; he does not conceive of a seer."

He does not add conceived things to that which is actually seen. This is called direct knowledge.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:45 pm

Ven. Thanisarro's intro. note to the Kalaka Sutta:

"Even though the Buddha has deep understanding, he doesn't take a stance on any of it"

Which means that the Tathagata knows and comprehends whatsoever is seen, heard, comprised, attained, searched into, etc., in the whole world, but he is not subject/attached to it..
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:52 pm

santa100 wrote:
Which means that the Tathagata knows and comprehends whatsoever is seen, heard, comprised, attained, searched into, etc., in the whole world,
What does that actually mean?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:00 pm

Quick simple example, unlike us, He wouldn't need to rely on Internet connection to search for a particular Dhamma topic to prove a point in a debate. He simple set His attention to the topic and He'll know it. Call it omniscience or anything you like. But I'm pretty sure that He wouldn't even bother getting all caught up with a debate as He made His point in the Kalaka Sutta.. :smile:
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:05 pm

santa100 wrote:Quick simple example, unlike us, He wouldn't need to rely on Internet connection to search for a particular Dhamma topic to prove a point in a debate. He simple set His attention to the topic and He'll know it. Call it omniscience or anything you like. But I'm pretty sure that He wouldn't even bother getting all caught up with a debate as He made His point in the Kalaka Sutta.. :smile:
You mean he'll know how many insects there are in the world if that is what he sets his attention to?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:35 pm

Why not? There's no way to completely rule out that possibility. So, are you completely certain that He's incapable of doing that?
Last edited by santa100 on Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:40 pm

santa100 wrote:Why not? There's no way to completely rule out that possibility..
The problem, however, with the quote is that it does not indicate omniscience:

    "The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established."
It is saying that the Buddha can thoroughly know the minds of any being. While impressive, it is not omniscience.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:49 pm

Well, then it's a matter of our difference in seeing the scope of "omniscience". Imho, "...Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect" is certainly within the scope of "counting the number of insect species"..However, I don't think we have to go so far as saying His possesses a steel body that is impervious to back pain or physical discomfort..
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:54 pm

santa100 wrote:Well, then it's a matter of our difference in seeing the scope of "omniscience". Imho, "...Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect" is certainly within the scope of "counting the number of insect species"..However, I don't think we have to go so far as saying His possesses a steel body that is impervious to back pain or physical discomfort..
Basically, this passage states that the Buddha can know whatever it is that other people know. That is not omniscience. And how reliable is the knowledge of other people?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:58 pm

Once again, that's your interpretation and your take on whether "counting the number of insect species" is part of omniscience. I see it differently. It's that simple..
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:12 pm

The above text describes the Buddha as having access to whatever is in the mind of "beings and persons," and that is all it is describing, what is in the minds of others. Interestingly, if that is omnscience then so is this:

    ". . . a bhikkhu understands the minds of other beings and persons, having encompassed with his own mind. He understands a mind with lust as a mind with lust; a mind without lust as a mind without lust; . . . a liberated mind as liberated and an unliberatedmind as unliberated." SN V 265; TCDB 1727
In understanding and in encompassing the minds of others to the extent of knowing whether or nor they have lust or not or are liberated or not, it would be hard to not also be aware of the contents of their minds. Note that there is no limitation in this put on the "beings and persons."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Ryuejaku » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ryuejaku wrote:
ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?


Of course there is,

Buddha didnt follow Buddhism to attain Nirvana . Buddhism is how he described it on an external lvl as best he could.

Mahavira attained Niravana/Moksha noth by the use of Buddhism.
Actually, you seem not to understand the question.


I understood, i just cut out the garbage and got str8 to the point.

if one wanted to replace the Nirvana & Moksha's with Buddhahood/fully Awake/fully enlightened.
8-)
50-70 more not bad in no rush
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby Dmytro » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:16 pm

Hi Mike,

He may be the only one discussed in detail, but I think you're missing the point that in a number of Suttas on the Gradual Training it is described as a generic thing that a follower of the Buddha does, and is clearly not exclusive to the Buddha.


I know these suttas well. Rod Bucknell even has a theory that originally the Buddhist path included remembering the past lives, etc.
However evidently this is quite an optional part of the Path.
IMHO, the Buddha just explained the Path in its fullest, with all that can be done, and all knowledges that can be attained. Obviously very few of his pupils attained any significant part of it.

mikenz66 wrote:The question is, apart from "omniscience" and related skills, is there any difference in the awakening/liberation/whatever?


"Bodhi" is somewhat poetically rendered in English as Awakening, but it is actually about comprehending (bujjhati).
So the difference in "Bodhi" is, firstly, that Buddha comprehends on his own (that's why he is called 'Buddha', "one who comprehended on his own"), while his followers do so with his aid.
Secondly, the difference is in amount of comprehension. Only the Buddha attains the knowledge of omniscience, and the "Three Knowledges".
His followers attain one Knowledge, the ending of leaks (asava), with a very rare exceptions of those who attain more Knowledges, but not omniscience.

:anjali:
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby santa100 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:30 pm

Actually, if we put SN 5.265 right next to AN 4.024, we'll see the clear difference in the scope of the Buddha's capability versus His noble disciples. Let's start with the SN excerpt:

"When the four bases for spiritual power have been developed and cultivated in this way, a bhikkhu understands the minds of other beings and person, having encompassed them with his own mind. He understands a mind with lust, hatred, delusion,..."

Now, compare to the AN excerpt:

"Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know." So, consider "Whatever in the cosmos" that still being "sought after" or "pondered by the intellect", it's safe to conclude that not only the Buddha clearly has access to other beings' mind (you don't even need to be a Buddha for crying out loud, as pointed out by SN above), but He also know the "whatever in the cosmos" that other beings are still "pondering" about..Call it omniscience or samma-sambodhi or whatever term you see fit..
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:21 pm

Hi Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote:So the difference in "Bodhi" is, firstly, that Buddha comprehends on his own (that's why he is called 'Buddha', "one who comprehended on his own"), while his followers do so with his aid.
Secondly, the difference is in amount of comprehension. Only the Buddha attains the knowledge of omniscience, and the "Three Knowledges".
His followers attain one Knowledge, the ending of leaks (asava), with a very rare exceptions of those who attain more Knowledges, but not omniscience.

Well OK, an Arahant has the same ending of savas as the Buddha. That's what I think Tilt has been arguing.

There is certainly no uniqueness about the three knowledges, since at least some arahants attain that (and I understood they were classified as mundane attainments, in any case...).

The "omniscience" (whatever that means, exactly) and various teaching skills spelled out in the stuttas (which seem to me to be connected with the "omniscience") are the distinctions between an Arahant and a Buddha?

:anjali:
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:59 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote:So the difference in "Bodhi" is, firstly, that Buddha comprehends on his own (that's why he is called 'Buddha', "one who comprehended on his own"), while his followers do so with his aid.
Secondly, the difference is in amount of comprehension. Only the Buddha attains the knowledge of omniscience, and the "Three Knowledges".
His followers attain one Knowledge, the ending of leaks (asava), with a very rare exceptions of those who attain more Knowledges, but not omniscience.

Well OK, an Arahant has the same ending of savas as the Buddha. That's what I think Tilt has been arguing.
That is what I am saying, and it is what the texts I quote clearly show: The (sam)bodhi used by the Buddha to describe his own awakening is the same as that of the arahants. Bodhi is not being used in a way by the Buddha that is inclusive of all the powers, but one, "the extinction of all cankers."

    abhiññā
    The 6 'higher powers', or supernormal knowledge's, consist of 5 mundane (lokiya) powers attainable through the utmost perfection in mental concentration (samādhi, q.v.) and one supermundane (lokuttara) power attainable through penetrating insight (vipassanā), i.e. extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya; s. āsava), in other words, realization of Arahatship or Holiness.

    They are:
    (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha),
    (2) divine ear (dibba-sota),
    (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñāna),
    (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivāsānussati),
    (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu),
    (6) extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya). http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm
In other words, only one is bodhi.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:10 am

santa100 wrote:Actually, if we put SN 5.265 right next to AN 4.024, we'll see the clear difference in the scope of the Buddha's capability versus His noble disciples. Let's start with the SN excerpt:

"When the four bases for spiritual power have been developed and cultivated in this way, a bhikkhu understands the minds of other beings and person, having encompassed them with his own mind. He understands a mind with lust, hatred, delusion,..."

Now, compare to the AN excerpt:

"Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know." So, consider "Whatever in the cosmos" that still being "sought after" or "pondered by the intellect", it's safe to conclude that not only the Buddha clearly has access to other beings' mind (you don't even need to be a Buddha for crying out loud, as pointed out by SN above), but He also know the "whatever in the cosmos" that other beings are still "pondering" about..Call it omniscience or samma-sambodhi or whatever term you see fit..
First of all the "beings and persons" is in no way limited in its description the text in question for the monk how has that power. All the AN texts is saying is that the Buddha knows the contents of the minds of beings and persons. Obviously if it is not in their minds, it is not known by the Buddha. The AN text is not a statement of omniscience anymore than is the SN statement.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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