Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...
Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for example.
The only example I know is Ven. Mahakassapa. And he doesn't have the Buddha's omniscience, described, for example, in Pasadika and Kalaka sutta:

"The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
The problem is, however, that that is not omniscience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
vinasp
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

"It is impossible, monks, it cannot come to pass, that in one world-system at
one and the same time there should arise two Arahants who are Fully Enlightened
Ones. But, monks, it is quite possible for a single Arahant, a Fully Enlightened
One, to arise."

[PTS, Gradual Sayings, p.26, Chapter XV, #5. Translation by F L Woodward.]
[DPR Anguttara, book 1, #277]

My interpretation: Quite correct. In my world-system it is impossible for two arahants
to arise. And in your world-system, it is also impossible for two arahants to arise.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by mikenz66 »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I'm confused. If you are referring to:
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. ...
Those three knowledges are also attained by at least some Arahants, as in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for example.
The only example I know is Ven. Mahakassapa.
He may be the only one discussed in detail, but I think you're missing the point that in a number of Suttas on the Gradual Training it is described as a generic thing that a follower of the Buddha does, and is clearly not exclusive to the Buddha.
mikenz66 wrote:
And he doesn't have the Buddha's omniscience, described, for example, in Pasadika and Kalaka sutta:

"The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No, but no-one is claiming that. The question is, apart from "omniscience" and related skills, is there any difference in the awakening/liberation/whatever?

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

"The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know." - [Kalaka Sutta.]

My reading: Whatever in the totality of one's experience, is seen, heard, sensed, cognized:
That do I know. That I directly know. The Buddha knows only the things in his own experience.

The whole point of this sutta is that the Buddha sees visible forms, but: "does not
conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an unseen;
he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seeing'; he does not conceive of a seer."

He does not add conceived things to that which is actually seen. This is called direct knowledge.

Regards, Vincent.
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Ven. Thanisarro's intro. note to the Kalaka Sutta:

"Even though the Buddha has deep understanding, he doesn't take a stance on any of it"

Which means that the Tathagata knows and comprehends whatsoever is seen, heard, comprised, attained, searched into, etc., in the whole world, but he is not subject/attached to it..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:
Which means that the Tathagata knows and comprehends whatsoever is seen, heard, comprised, attained, searched into, etc., in the whole world,
What does that actually mean?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Quick simple example, unlike us, He wouldn't need to rely on Internet connection to search for a particular Dhamma topic to prove a point in a debate. He simple set His attention to the topic and He'll know it. Call it omniscience or anything you like. But I'm pretty sure that He wouldn't even bother getting all caught up with a debate as He made His point in the Kalaka Sutta.. :smile:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Quick simple example, unlike us, He wouldn't need to rely on Internet connection to search for a particular Dhamma topic to prove a point in a debate. He simple set His attention to the topic and He'll know it. Call it omniscience or anything you like. But I'm pretty sure that He wouldn't even bother getting all caught up with a debate as He made His point in the Kalaka Sutta.. :smile:
You mean he'll know how many insects there are in the world if that is what he sets his attention to?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Why not? There's no way to completely rule out that possibility. So, are you completely certain that He's incapable of doing that?
Last edited by santa100 on Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Why not? There's no way to completely rule out that possibility..
The problem, however, with the quote is that it does not indicate omniscience:
  • "The Blessed One said: "Monks, whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathagata, but in the Tathagata it has not been established."
It is saying that the Buddha can thoroughly know the minds of any being. While impressive, it is not omniscience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Well, then it's a matter of our difference in seeing the scope of "omniscience". Imho, "...Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect" is certainly within the scope of "counting the number of insect species"..However, I don't think we have to go so far as saying His possesses a steel body that is impervious to back pain or physical discomfort..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Well, then it's a matter of our difference in seeing the scope of "omniscience". Imho, "...Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & priests, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect" is certainly within the scope of "counting the number of insect species"..However, I don't think we have to go so far as saying His possesses a steel body that is impervious to back pain or physical discomfort..
Basically, this passage states that the Buddha can know whatever it is that other people know. That is not omniscience. And how reliable is the knowledge of other people?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Once again, that's your interpretation and your take on whether "counting the number of insect species" is part of omniscience. I see it differently. It's that simple..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

The above text describes the Buddha as having access to whatever is in the mind of "beings and persons," and that is all it is describing, what is in the minds of others. Interestingly, if that is omnscience then so is this:
  • ". . . a bhikkhu understands the minds of other beings and persons, having encompassed with his own mind. He understands a mind with lust as a mind with lust; a mind without lust as a mind without lust; . . . a liberated mind as liberated and an unliberatedmind as unliberated." SN V 265; TCDB 1727
In understanding and in encompassing the minds of others to the extent of knowing whether or nor they have lust or not or are liberated or not, it would be hard to not also be aware of the contents of their minds. Note that there is no limitation in this put on the "beings and persons."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Ryuejaku
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Ryuejaku »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ryuejaku wrote:
ccharles wrote:Is there a path to Buddhahood, rather than Arhatship outlined in Theravada?
Of course there is,

Buddha didnt follow Buddhism to attain Nirvana . Buddhism is how he described it on an external lvl as best he could.

Mahavira attained Niravana/Moksha noth by the use of Buddhism.
Actually, you seem not to understand the question.
I understood, i just cut out the garbage and got str8 to the point.

if one wanted to replace the Nirvana & Moksha's with Buddhahood/fully Awake/fully enlightened.
8-)
50-70 more not bad in no rush
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