the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Maarten » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:14 pm

I'm on a strict vegetarian diet. I only eat vegetarians! :P
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Hanzze » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:17 pm

As long as you do not kill them or cause them to be killed... But to do not cause such conjecture the Buddha told his disiples to abstain from that if they are humans. But it should be not probelm to eat given vegetarians beside humans.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:31 pm

Maarten wrote:I'm on a strict vegetarian diet. I only eat vegetarians! :P

Haha I had a good older friend who always said that if the apocalypse came, he would eat me first because I wasn't filled with all the hormones and additives you find in meat. So I guess you better be careful :)
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Maarten » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:11 pm

Hanzze wrote:As long as you do not kill them or cause them to be killed... But to do not cause such conjecture the Buddha told his disiples to abstain from that if they are humans. But it should be not probelm to eat given vegetarians beside humans.


So the Buddha actually forbade cannibalism? :o Then it would seem there were canibals during the Buddhas time, which to me is always shocking to hear.

In all seriousness, I voted vegetarian, although I'm considering eating meat again.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Maarten » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:13 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
Maarten wrote:I'm on a strict vegetarian diet. I only eat vegetarians! :P

Haha I had a good older friend who always said that if the apocalypse came, he would eat me first because I wasn't filled with all the hormones and additives you find in meat. So I guess you better be careful :)


It does sound more tasty! :D
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:53 pm

Maarten wrote:I'm on a strict vegetarian diet. I only eat vegetarians! :P

what about vegan & part time vegetarians?
LOL
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:35 am

Maarten wrote:
Hanzze wrote:As long as you do not kill them or cause them to be killed... But to do not cause such conjecture the Buddha told his disiples to abstain from that if they are humans. But it should be not probelm to eat given vegetarians beside humans.


So the Buddha actually forbade cannibalism? :o Then it would seem there were canibals during the Buddhas time, which to me is always shocking to hear.

In all seriousness, I voted vegetarian, although I'm considering eating meat again.

Yes he forbade as well as the meat of some other predator. Exept of it, everything is fine if death (without live), given and not taken.
I am not sure what is meant by cannibalism. Is it a matter of killing or just eating. I am not sure if the eating of human flesh beside of the brodly generated perception of aversion would be that unwholesome. I guess such things as vegetarianism for example have much to do with identification rather then with intention. The perception of eat death things sometimes produces some kind of disgust and fear.

Such things as cannibalism are told to exist even today (there are many stories from Thailand for example), the sacrify of human decay just about 150 years in south east asia as I read in a scholar history book.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Maarten » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:15 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Maarten wrote:I'm on a strict vegetarian diet. I only eat vegetarians! :P

what about vegan & part time vegetarians?
LOL


Vegan never sounded very tasty to me, part time vegetarians can be partially eaten. :P
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:18 am

Which particle are allowed or just particles?

Back to human. Maybe its from interesst for the vegetarian worriers and vegan worriers. In the commentary of Buddhist Monastic Code of Bhikkhu Thanisarro is written:

"Human beings, horses, and elephants were regarded as too noble to be used as food."
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:27 pm

My mother become vegan like me... it's great :woohoo:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:37 pm

Did you tell her that you would ordinate if she would not do so? :tongue:
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:02 pm

Hanzze wrote:Did you tell her that you would ordinate if she would not do so? :tongue:

No :tongue:

Actualy she saw that i loose a lot of weight with my one meal vegan diet (1 kg per mounth, now the weight become stable, with 1m83cm my weight is 67kg), so she take a decision to loose some weight too, with this kind of diet :stirthepot: Motivation is not perfect, but anyway is good :roll: I'am proud :namaste:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ryuejaku » Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:45 pm


Vegetarian in reference to not eating meat/sentient beings.

IMPOSSIBLE on Earth.

1. you accidentally eat insects while you sleep
2. im ~85% confident to say all Vegetable products have a government regulation for maximum amount of insects that can be inside food products such as peanut butter, bread etc. ( reason its not 100% is im not gonna research every single product )

Accidental or purposely it does not matter. but eating only vegetable products you can still basically be ~75-95% vegetarian. So in regards to 75-95% vegetarian Id yes yes very possible.

on another note, Black Beans is gr8 for protein for vegans ( one of few plants that is a complete protein. )
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:10 pm

Ryuejaku wrote:Accidental or purposely it does not matter.


It most certainly does matter. It is all about intention. The Pali Canon is permeated with Suttas against purposely and directly killing. The indirect things without intention do not create bad kamma.

I am sure you are correct about it being nearly impossible to be 'nutritionally/diet' 100% vegetarian or especially vegan, but one can choose the least amount of violence, if one wishes.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ryuejaku » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:31 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Ryuejaku wrote:Accidental or purposely it does not matter.


It most certainly does matter. It is all about intention. The Pali Canon is permeated with Suttas against purposely and directly killing. The indirect things without intention do not create bad kamma.


Im aware of intention and was not talking on accumulating bad/negative karma. mainly a violent action towards sentient beings is happening.


[quote="David N. Snyder"I am sure you are correct about it being nearly impossible to be 'nutritionally/diet' 100% vegetarian or especially vegan, but one can choose the least amount of violence, if one wishes.[/quote]

of course vegan & Vegetarian are significantly less violent then a hard core meat eater.

to use the notion of numbers & percentages on a violent scale in regards to eating sentient beings. 0-11 ( 11 is most violent) .

Vegan- .5 - 2
Vegetarian 2.5-4.5
Vegetarian that seldomly eats wild caught fish (3.5-6)
Omnivore ( who eats more plants then animals etc) 7-8
Omnivore ( whose a hard core meat eater whose freezer and fridge stacked with fish, burgers etc ) 8-10.5

for a peaceful person i would say with out a shadow of a doubt Vegan & Vegetarian is way to go.

on another note and not to jump to conclusions, I assure you my post was not to get peps to say forget vegan and vegetarian coz its not 100% possible.
just joining discussion and posting on it.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:19 pm

Personally I love these threads and read the various arguments pro and con with great interest. :popcorn: So keep the fires stoked, my Buddha-homies.

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian, seen as a person of great compassion by some and a monstrous supporter of industrialized-torture-factories by others. The views of either don't influence my eating habits either way.

Oh yeah: about once every six weeks or so I consume a hamburger because I have this superstitious belief that every time I do so, one of those angry preachy vegan types chokes to death on a rice cake.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:21 am

Ryuejaku wrote:Vegetarian in reference to not eating meat/sentient beings.

Would eating beings without feeling, or who remain in a persistent vegetative state, or special use or purpose be ok? Things which are just vegetating?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:13 am

SN 18.1
Bones And A Lump of Flesh


At one time the Blessed One was living in the squirrels' sanctuary in the bamboo grove in Rajagaha.
At that time venerable Lakkhaõa and venerable Mahàmoggallàna were living in the peaks of the Gijjha rock.
Venerable Mahàmoggallàna wearing robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes approached venerable Lakkhaõa.
Approaching said to venerable Lakkhaõa: ßFriend Lakkhaõa, let us enter Rajagaha for alms.û Venerable Lakkhaõa said: ßYes, friend.û
Venerable Mahàmoggallàna while descending from the Gijjha peak, smiled at a certain spot.
Then venerable Lakkhaõa said to venerable Mahàmoggallàna: ßFriend, Moggallàna, for what reasson did you smile?
Friend, Lakkhaõa, this is not the right time to ask that question. Ask that question in the presence of the Blessed One.û

Then venerable Lakkhaõa and venerable Mahàmoggallàna went the alms round in Rajagaha. After partaking the meal and returning from the alms round approached the Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side.
Sitting on a side venerable Lakkhaõa said to venerable Mahàmoggallàna: ßFriend Moggallàna, when descending from the Gijjha peak you smiled at a certain spot, for what reason did you smile?û
Friend, when I was descending the Gijjha peak, I saw a skeleton moving in space and it was followed and attacked by vultures, crows, and hawks, and they pull a rib from it and divide it among them, and the skeleton gives a cry of distress.
Friend, then it occurred to me: `Indeed it is wonderful and surprising to see a being, a non-human, a gain of self like this.û'
Then the Blessed One addressed the monks: ßMonks, the disciple should live wisely with aroused knowledge, when he knows, sees or witnesses such a thing.
Monks, in the past I saw this being, yet I did not tell it to anyone. If I had told, others would not believe me and it would be for their ill being and unpleasantness for a long time.
Monks, this person was a slaughterer of cattle in this same Rajagaha. As a result of that action he suffered in hell for many years, for many hundreds of years, for many thousands of years, for many hundred thousands of years. And as a result of that action suffers, having gained that self.û


SN 18.2
(Repeat sutta 18. 1. 1. substituting as follows:)
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a muscle moving in space ...
... as this person was a slaughterer of cows in this same Rajagaha ...


SN 18.3
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a piece of flesh moving in space ...
... as this person was a bird hunter in this same Rajagaha ...


SN 18.4
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a skinned man moving in space ...
... this person was a slaughterer of pigs in this same Rajagaha ...


SN 18.1
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a man with knives rising from the body and falling on the body, moving in space ...
.. this person was a slaughterer of pigs in this same Rajagaha ...


SN 18.1
... When descending the Gijjha peak I saw a man with swords rising from the body and falling on the body moving in space ...
... this person was a hunter of wild animals in this same Rajagaha ...


Ven Bhikkhu Bidhi stranslate "slaughter" like "butcher"

Many peoples say that it's OK to buy meat etc cause there is no itention to kill, there is no incitement to kill. But isn't money the incitement to kill?
I think that is not OK to put taste pleasure forward a life of one being. I hope you will never suffer like they suffer.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:35 am

Do you think that there a butcher who are vegetarians?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:46 am

Technichaly is possible... Some peoples comes vegetarian or vegan cause they have some illness for some products.

Also, there is one law in drug buisness (cause meat is a drug): "never consum your own drug !"
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