my radical new insight :)

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my radical new insight :)

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:46 am

Here it is: Absolute impermanence of sensations reveals the permanence of the deathless.

Lets break this down.

Absolute impermanence of sensations: If you keep breaking down bigger sensations into smaller and smaller vibrations you get to the point where you recognize that everything is arising and ceasing literally in the same moment.

Reveals the permanence of the deathless: The deathless is the unfabricated unchanging aspect of consciousness. The aspect which directly apprehends things without defining them or understanding them or anything in anyway. Direct apprehension of appearances. You can understand this intellectually by noticing that no matter what you experience, you can't deny that it is being directly experienced. If you are experiencing pain, it is being directly experienced without reaction. If you experience a reaction to the pain it is being directly experienced without a reaction. If you experience a reaction to a reaction it is being experienced without a reaction. If you experience thoughts about all this they are being experienced directly, clearly, without a reaction.

Recognizing the way the deathless aspect of consciousness apprehends is the direct source of the unlimited happiness of nibbana. Every experience of everything directly reveals this single unchanging thing - consciousness itself which is no different from what sensations, there is no knower and known, it is non-dual in this sense. When one recognizes this infinitely stable and perfectly equanimous thing that is always there no matter what (because it experiences and is the experience of whatever you are experiencing) one will be as happy as one possibly can depending on how much one is willing to surrender to this deathless aspect of consciousness.

But hey - everyone already knows this, what's the big insight? Well, the big insight is that what reveals this deathlessness to you is the absolute impermanence of phenomena. Because things are arising and ceasing in the same instant, that which experiences them couldn't possibly have any characteristics or preferences of its own or in any way be anything itself. If the knower of phenomena was anything, then it would contribute to its experiences in some way, but it can't because they are infinitely fleeting, if it contributed anything then they would have some duration. But this moment has no duration and it is always this moment.

How to recognize this for yourself? Simply notice what you are experiencing, but much more importantly notice that you are experiencing it. Notice that all of everything you are experiencing is simply consciousness. This has nothing to do with whether there is a world existing outside of consciousness, it is simply that consciousness - everything you experience - is consciousness. That's what it is... DUH! When you see things in this way they become totally fluid and every experiencing directly reflects the deathless awareness that directly apprehends things without adding anything to them.

Noticing that this deathless aspect of consciousness has no qualities or characteristics or anything which could possibly ever get injured in any way gives your naturally occurring desire a place where it can be totally fulfilled, infinitely and eternally, because it can not be separated from this unchanging object which totally fulfills it. (not saying that I abide in this eternally, just that I now understand it)

An important point - you can't find this deathlessness anywhere in your experience (it isn't in the head, it isn't a sense of space), just realize it through seeing that all experience is simply consciousness.
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:51 am

Sounds good, does it need maintenance. And if how and why?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:28 am

Sorry could you rephrase that question?

Do you mean does this insight need maintenance? it only needs to be kept in mind. (until views, states of becoming, and imaginations of sensuality that cause it to be forgotten are recognized as providing only the slightest amount of pleasure in comparison to this eternal stability which provides a true home for the mind, the security experienced is unimaginable)

Does that which is noticed (the unchanging consciousness) need maintenance? of course not :P

Does my current way of experiencing need maintenance? no, the deathless aspect of consciousness only needs to be seen reflected in (and equal to) whatever i am experiencing, this instantly drops all desires away, though it won't work if you do it with the intention of dropping desires away, because then you aren't seeing the desires as simply reflections of this consciousness, if you saw them that way you wouldn't have any interest in dropping them away. If the desires continued in the face of seeing that they were reflections of this consciousness that wouldn't be a problem in the slightest but regardless they are extinguished by seeing the permanence, that is just how the mind operates.

If none of this makes sense, or if it makes sense for a bit then stops, keep seeing impermanence of sensations and save this for later. (not speaking directly to anyone)
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:31 am

Maybe you like to give this words another thought.

"no, the deathless aspect of consciousness only needs to be seen reflected inwhatever i am experiencing"
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:36 am

ohnofabrications wrote:. . .
Keep paying attention. No need to jump to conclusions quite yet, or at all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:39 am

hehe stop being so cryptic

Do you mean that it doesn't matter whether I see it as such or not? This is true in an ultimate sense, I am suggesting that it should be recognized just so people know what to do.

While I now know that the nature of the unfabricated is utterly beyond affliction, there is still something in me (something irrational) that would like to recognize this fact. Would you suggest that I instead simply rest in confidence that this is how things are? Recognize that there is absolute freedom, not only when I see this nature but also when I don't?

If so, perhaps you are totally right :bow:

or maybe you meant something else

As for underlining "I am" that is just how the english language works. We say "it rains" but we aren't referring to anything by the word "it."

tilt-
paying attention is a fabricated act, the fact that you can tell the difference between paying attention and not paying attention shows that there is a consciousness prior to attention. perhaps you already see this and there is just miscommunication, could you explain differently what I should "do?"
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:45 am

ohnofabrications wrote:
tilt-
paying attention is a fabricated act, the fact that you can tell the difference between paying attention and not paying attention shows that there is a consciousness prior to attention. perhaps you already see this and there is just miscommunication, could you explain differently what I should "do?"
Pay attention and you might see that a "fabricated act" is is actually what is going to help free you. Also, since you are on about fabricated things, you might not want to get too attached to "deathless is the unfabricated unchanging aspect of consciousness."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:52 am

Tilt, the way you refuse to directly engage this understanding with your own makes me think this is your i-maker rejecting someone else having insights, you don't wish to directly state your position because it would leave the view vulnerable. The view isn't you or yours, don't worry about it, please don't be offended by this that would only serve to create more distortion in this communication.

Also, since you are on about fabricated things, you might not want to get too attached to "deathless is the unfabricated unchanging aspect of consciousness."


I assume that you are implying that what I think is the deathless is actually something fabricated, but were you to recognizing what I am pointing to you would see that this could not be. I am not pointing to anything in experience, you can't point to it, it isn't in any direction, it isn't an object. It can be apprehended as changeless and unfabricated through simply seeing the the aggregates/senses immediately present themselves to it with no distortion. Simply notice that everything you can point to is known by something prior to your pointing to it.

If you do think that this is fabricated please say more about why you think that.

edit: sorry i have to go for now, I have already explained my position as clearly as I can i think ;\
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:06 am

ohnofabrications wrote:Tilt, the way you refuse to directly engage this understanding with your own makes me think this is your i-maker rejecting someone else having insights, you don't wish to directly state your position because it would leave the view vulnerable. The view isn't you or yours, don't worry about it, please don't be offended by this that would only serve to create more distortion in this communication.
It is worth keeping in mind Ajahn Sumedho's comment to Jack Kornfield after Jack related his experiences from a year long retreat:
After only a year and a half of practice at Wat Ba Pong, one American [Jack Kornfield] asked and received permission [from Ajahn Chah] to travel and study with other Thai and Burmese teachers. A year or two later, he returned full of tales of his travels, of many months of extraordinary and intensive practice and of a number of remarkable experiences. . . . Then the Western monk went to the cottage of Achaan Sumedho, the senior Western disciple of Achaan Chah, and told all his stories and adventures, his new understandings and great insights into practice. Sumedho listened in silence and prepared afternoon tea from the roots of certain forest plants. When the stories were completed and the insights recounted, Sumedho smiled and said, "Ah, how wonderful. Something else to let go of."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:12 am

And in addition to Tilt's excellent advice, the advice of my teacher who says:
Do nothing,
Just observe!
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:
ohnofabrications wrote:. . .
Keep paying attention. No need to jump to conclusions quite yet, or at all.

:thumbsup:

I found this very useful (as doing nothing could result easy such OPs): De-perception
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:22 am

Yes something else to let go of, nice!

But I would be doing you a disservice to not push this further. Whether or not (any of you) would like to continue discussing this, please notice in your daily life when there seems to be a "problem" that there is consciousness there. Not "just consciousness" or "more than consciousness" those both get you into views, instead notice that consciousness is consciousness. Notice your minds ability to perceive (this isn't itself an object of perception). I am unwavering in my knowledge that this insight is accurate (there is nothing more clear than that consciousness is consciousness) but the understanding can be let go of nonetheless.
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:34 am

ohnofabrications wrote: I am unwavering in my knowledge that this insight is accurate (there is nothing more clear than that consciousness is consciousness) but the understanding can be let go of nonetheless.
As I would say to my Christian fundamentalist friends who asserted anbsolute certainty of their insights: "It is not doubt that the Devil brings, but unquestioning certainty." The "I-making" -- to use your expression -- is no different.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:37 am

Welcome to mind-nature ! It's a gereat insight.

Now you will talk alot about it, but also you will see a lot of incomprehention. It's OK. The most important is that now you have no doubt.
Some zen teachers say taht it's easy to get englightened, it's diffucult to be enlightened.
Keep dwell in it.

It's not the time to stop practice, is the time to start practice.

I dont want to give you any advice, you are able now to give advice to your own, anyway, you will forgot all of this, so just practice, and also read suttas cause you will understand amuch more in it, and also knowing suttas will help you to have some argument when you will talk about it.

Anyway "if that you want to tell is less important that the silence - shut up "

:namaste:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:39 am

Hi tilt, if you understand what I am saying and object, please explain instead of hiding behind vague phrases that only serve to assert that you know more. If you do not, but wish to, keep seeing annicca. If you don't, and don't wish to, please continue as you are.
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:41 am

I guess it does not make much sence of keeping watching anicca as long as it is fabricated, what does not mean that it can be good to watch for it, again and again. "This is not"and let go "This is not" and let go.

With a anicca perception we will not easily be able to observe it.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:46 am

ohnofabrications wrote:Hi tilt, if you understand what I am saying and object, please explain instead of hiding behind vague phrases that only serve to assert that you know more. If you do not, but wish to, keep seeing annicca. If you don't, and don't wish to, please continue as you are.



    If I stood still, I sank; If I struggled, I was carried away.
    Thus by neither standing still nor struggling, I crossed the flood.
    SN 1 1
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:47 am

ohnofabrications wrote:Hi tilt, if you understand what I am saying and object, please explain instead of hiding behind vague phrases that only serve to assert that you know more. If you do not, but wish to, keep seeing annicca. If you don't, and don't wish to, please continue as you are.


Tilt is giving you excellent advice. Perhaps you need to practice some more and think about some of the things Tilt has said to you.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:57 am

Whool Rahula Samyutta (SN 17) is about anicca.
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html

SN 17.3
Consciousness


I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anàthapiõóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthi.
Then venerable Ràhula approached the Blessed One worshipped and sat on a side.
Sitting on a side venerable Ràhula said to the Blessed One: ßVenerable sir, Blessed One, may I be taught so that I would withdraw and seclude and abide diligent and zealous to dispel.û

Ràhula, is eye-consciousness permanent or impermanent?û
It's impermanent, venerable sir.û
That which is impermanent is it unpleasant or pleasant?û
It's unpleasant, venerable sir.û
That which is impermanent, unpleasant, a changing thing is it suitable to be considered `that is mine, I am that, it's my self?'û
That is not so, venerable sir.û

Ràhula, is ear-consciousnes ... re ...
... re ... nose-consciousness ... re ...
... re ... tongue-consciousness ... re ...
... re ... body-consciousness ... re ...
... re ... mind-consciousness permanent or impermanent?û
It's impermanent, venerable sir.û
That which is impermanent is it unpleasant or pleasant?û
It's unpleasant, venerable sir.û
That which is impermanent, unpleasant, a changing thing is it suitable to be considered `that is mine, I am that, it's my self?'û
That is not so, venerable sir.û

Ràhula, the noble disciple seeing it thus, turns away from eye-consciosness, turns away from ear-consciosness, turns away from nose-consciosness, turns away from tongue-consciosness, turns away from body-consciosness and turns away from mind-consciosness.

Turning away detaches himself, is dispassionate and is released. Released, knowledge arises, `Birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, duties are done, there's nothing more to wish'.û


tiltbillings wrote:
ohnofabrications wrote:Hi tilt, if you understand what I am saying and object, please explain instead of hiding behind vague phrases that only serve to assert that you know more. If you do not, but wish to, keep seeing annicca. If you don't, and don't wish to, please continue as you are.



    If I stood still, I sank; If I struggled, I was carried away.
    Thus by neither standing still nor struggling, I crossed the flood.
    SN 1 1


Love this sutta.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: my radical new insight :)

Postby SamKR » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:58 am

Hanzze wrote:I guess it does not make much sence of keeping watching anicca as long as it is fabricated, what does not mean that it can be good to watch for it, again and again. "This is not"and let go "This is not" and let go.

With a anicca perception we will not easily be able to observe it.


I do not quite understand what you said above. Could you explain a bit more, or say in different words, if possible.
Thanks.
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