Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

Hi Mike,
He may be the only one discussed in detail, but I think you're missing the point that in a number of Suttas on the Gradual Training it is described as a generic thing that a follower of the Buddha does, and is clearly not exclusive to the Buddha.
I know these suttas well. Rod Bucknell even has a theory that originally the Buddhist path included remembering the past lives, etc.
However evidently this is quite an optional part of the Path.
IMHO, the Buddha just explained the Path in its fullest, with all that can be done, and all knowledges that can be attained. Obviously very few of his pupils attained any significant part of it.
mikenz66 wrote:The question is, apart from "omniscience" and related skills, is there any difference in the awakening/liberation/whatever?
"Bodhi" is somewhat poetically rendered in English as Awakening, but it is actually about comprehending (bujjhati).
So the difference in "Bodhi" is, firstly, that Buddha comprehends on his own (that's why he is called 'Buddha', "one who comprehended on his own"), while his followers do so with his aid.
Secondly, the difference is in amount of comprehension. Only the Buddha attains the knowledge of omniscience, and the "Three Knowledges".
His followers attain one Knowledge, the ending of leaks (asava), with a very rare exceptions of those who attain more Knowledges, but not omniscience.

:anjali:
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Actually, if we put SN 5.265 right next to AN 4.024, we'll see the clear difference in the scope of the Buddha's capability versus His noble disciples. Let's start with the SN excerpt:

"When the four bases for spiritual power have been developed and cultivated in this way, a bhikkhu understands the minds of other beings and person, having encompassed them with his own mind. He understands a mind with lust, hatred, delusion,..."

Now, compare to the AN excerpt:

"Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know." So, consider "Whatever in the cosmos" that still being "sought after" or "pondered by the intellect", it's safe to conclude that not only the Buddha clearly has access to other beings' mind (you don't even need to be a Buddha for crying out loud, as pointed out by SN above), but He also know the "whatever in the cosmos" that other beings are still "pondering" about..Call it omniscience or samma-sambodhi or whatever term you see fit..
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote: So the difference in "Bodhi" is, firstly, that Buddha comprehends on his own (that's why he is called 'Buddha', "one who comprehended on his own"), while his followers do so with his aid.
Secondly, the difference is in amount of comprehension. Only the Buddha attains the knowledge of omniscience, and the "Three Knowledges".
His followers attain one Knowledge, the ending of leaks (asava), with a very rare exceptions of those who attain more Knowledges, but not omniscience.
Well OK, an Arahant has the same ending of savas as the Buddha. That's what I think Tilt has been arguing.

There is certainly no uniqueness about the three knowledges, since at least some arahants attain that (and I understood they were classified as mundane attainments, in any case...).

The "omniscience" (whatever that means, exactly) and various teaching skills spelled out in the stuttas (which seem to me to be connected with the "omniscience") are the distinctions between an Arahant and a Buddha?

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote: So the difference in "Bodhi" is, firstly, that Buddha comprehends on his own (that's why he is called 'Buddha', "one who comprehended on his own"), while his followers do so with his aid.
Secondly, the difference is in amount of comprehension. Only the Buddha attains the knowledge of omniscience, and the "Three Knowledges".
His followers attain one Knowledge, the ending of leaks (asava), with a very rare exceptions of those who attain more Knowledges, but not omniscience.
Well OK, an Arahant has the same ending of savas as the Buddha. That's what I think Tilt has been arguing.
That is what I am saying, and it is what the texts I quote clearly show: The (sam)bodhi used by the Buddha to describe his own awakening is the same as that of the arahants. Bodhi is not being used in a way by the Buddha that is inclusive of all the powers, but one, "the extinction of all cankers."
  • abhiññā
    The 6 'higher powers', or supernormal knowledge's, consist of 5 mundane (lokiya) powers attainable through the utmost perfection in mental concentration (samādhi, q.v.) and one supermundane (lokuttara) power attainable through penetrating insight (vipassanā), i.e. extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya; s. āsava), in other words, realization of Arahatship or Holiness.

    They are:
    (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha),
    (2) divine ear (dibba-sota),
    (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñāna),
    (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivāsānussati),
    (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu),
    (6) extinction of all cankers (āsavakkhaya). http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In other words, only one is bodhi.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Actually, if we put SN 5.265 right next to AN 4.024, we'll see the clear difference in the scope of the Buddha's capability versus His noble disciples. Let's start with the SN excerpt:

"When the four bases for spiritual power have been developed and cultivated in this way, a bhikkhu understands the minds of other beings and person, having encompassed them with his own mind. He understands a mind with lust, hatred, delusion,..."

Now, compare to the AN excerpt:

"Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in the cosmos — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their royalty & common people — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know." So, consider "Whatever in the cosmos" that still being "sought after" or "pondered by the intellect", it's safe to conclude that not only the Buddha clearly has access to other beings' mind (you don't even need to be a Buddha for crying out loud, as pointed out by SN above), but He also know the "whatever in the cosmos" that other beings are still "pondering" about..Call it omniscience or samma-sambodhi or whatever term you see fit..
First of all the "beings and persons" is in no way limited in its description the text in question for the monk how has that power. All the AN texts is saying is that the Buddha knows the contents of the minds of beings and persons. Obviously if it is not in their minds, it is not known by the Buddha. The AN text is not a statement of omniscience anymore than is the SN statement.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:that's why he is called 'Buddha', "one who comprehended on his own"
Would you be so kind as to actually carefully support that statement rather than merely asserting it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"First of all the "beings and persons" is in no way limited in its description the text in question for the monk how has that power. All the AN texts is saying is that the Buddha knows the contents of the minds of beings and persons. Obviously if it is not in their minds, it is not known by the Buddha. The AN text is not a statement of omniscience anymore than is the SN statement."

Obviously it did not have "whatever in the cosmos". It's specifically "beings and persons", regardless of whether in the unlimited or limted sense, but that's still it. And as long as that "whatever" is still being "sought after" or "pondering by the intellect", the Buddha has direct knowledge. Thus it's obvious that the scope of the AN excerpt is the "superset" to that of the SN excerpt..
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote: Thus it's obvious that the scope of the AN excerpt is the "superset" to that of the SN excerpt.
Not that you have shown.
You try to weight these: '"sought after" or "pondering by the intellect", the Buddha has direct knowledge,' but the problem with this is what does it actually mean? Walshe's translation: "whatever was achieved, sought after or mentally pondered upon" and Ven Thanisarrao's: "attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect." Both translations point to experiences in the past tense, which is to say it has to do with memory. It is mind reading, not omniscience.
Obviously it did not have "whatever in the cosmos". It's specifically "beings and persons", regardless of whether in the unlimited or limted sense, but that's still it.
The SN is still open ended, not limited, which put it out there with "whatever in the cosmos."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:The "omniscience" (whatever that means, exactly) and various teaching skills spelled out in the stuttas (which seem to me to be connected with the "omniscience") are the distinctions between an Arahant and a Buddha?
The main distinction is that the Buddha opens up the forgotten path.
Other distinctions are omniscience (in the Buddhist sense), teaching skills, and other faculties, explained more fully in Patisambhidamagga.
That's why his attainment is called Samma-sambodhi.

:anjali:
Last edited by Assaji on Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:The "omniscience" (whatever that means, exactly) and various teaching skills spelled out in the stuttas (which seem to me to be connected with the "omniscience") are the distinctions between an Arahant and a Buddha?
The main distinction is that the Buddha opens up the forgotten path.
Other distinctions are omniscience (in the Buddhist sense), teaching skills, and other faculties, explained more fully in Patisambhidamagga.
Yes, indeed, and none of that is bodhi as the Buddha uses the term in relation to himself and the attainment of the arahants.
That's why his attainment is called Samma-sambodhi.
Because he makes known the path to the awakening, bodhi, he attained through the power he cultivated, and that bodhi the Buddha attained, that nibbana, that cessation is no different from that attained bodhi by the arahants:
  • Bhikkhus, the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82
  • Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223
  • A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana]. MN i 104
  • The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1
  • There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. MN i 15
  • "Come, this is the Way, this is the course I [the Buddha] have followed until, having realized by my own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into Brahma-faring, I have made it known. Come you too, follow likewise, so that you also, having realized by your own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into the Brahma-faring, may abide in it." -- AN I 168-69.

  • He [the Buddha] says: 'Here! This is the path, this is the practice that, having practiced, I make known the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life, having directly known & realized it for myself. Come! You, too, practice in such a way that you will remain in the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life [attaining nibbana], having directly known & realized it for yourselves.' Thus the Teacher teaches the Dhamma, and others practice, for Suchness. And there are countless hundreds of them, countless thousands of them, countless hundreds of thousands of them. This being the case … this business of going-forth … one that benefits countless beings…. AN I 168-69. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 3-060.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  • 'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"

    'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage
    [yogakkhemo=nibbana]. 'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."' -- AN II ii 5.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Not that you have shown.
You try to weight these: '"sought after" or "pondering by the intellect", the Buddha has direct knowledge,' but the problem with this is what does it actually mean? Walshe's translation: "whatever was achieved, sought after or mentally pondered upon" and Ven Thanisarrao's: "attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect." Both translations point to experiences in the past tense, which is to say it has to do with memory. It is mind reading, not omniscience"

I did. But you did not. Read Thanissaro's translastion again on this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , he used the big word "IS", not "WAS". The message can't be any clearer than that.

Tiltbillings wrote:
"The SN is still open ended, not limited, which put it out there with "whatever in the cosmos.""

If there's no "whatever in the cosmos", then it simply cannot be put out there with the AN excerpt. That simple..
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:It is mind reading, not omniscience.
And how do you know this? The Theravāda tradition maintains that it's referring to omniscience. The Theravāda tradition also commonly explains that omniscience is one of the definitions of the term bodhi. Moreover, all Buddhist traditions maintain that the Buddha was omniscient and that this is one of the qualities that differentiates a Buddha's awakening from that of an arahant disciple. You're attempting to reject a foundational Buddhist tenet that's well over 2000 years old, considered important enough to be included in the Pāli canon, as well as in Ven. Walpola Rahula's Basic Points Unifying the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna which was unanimously approved at the First Congress of the World Buddhist Sangha Council.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

As already discussed, it's a matter of whether this or that interpretive authority is considered as valid for the purpose of understanding what one can read in the suttas. Citing more authority isn't going to change this fundamental difference in approach.

(No. 8 in that link, for example, is utterly problematic.)
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17169
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by DNS »

From another thread:
Dhammanando wrote: Well, the commentarial view is that all knowable things are potentially accessible to [the Buddha's understanding, paññā], but that they are not all simultaneously accessible. We haven't yet got around to the question of what is meant by a knowable thing, but this too is an important qualification, for nowhere is it asserted that all things are knowable things. And so the Buddha's "omniscience" as the commentators understand it, is far from being the Allah-like or Jehovah-like omniscience that some Mahayana Buddhists posit. For example, there must be at least some future things that are not knowable things, since for all future things to be knowable would require all future things to be predetermined, which would conflict with the Buddha's rejection of fatalism.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... t=132#p820" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

And that's all fine and dandy David. There's certainly no need to associate any Allah-like attribute to our Buddha. Now, there's an important point to notice, that the "commentarial view" in Dhammanando's quote is exactly that of the Theravada exegetical tradition. Here is the full note from Bhikkhu Bodhi in his MN book:

[Note 714]: "MA explains that even though part of the statement is valid, the Buddha rejects the entire statement because of the portion that is invalid. The part of the statement that is valid is the assertion that the Buddha is omniscient and all-seeing; the part that is excessive is the assertion that knowledge and vision are continuously present to him. According to the Theravāda exegetical tradition the Buddha is omniscient in the sense that all knowable things are potentially accessible to him. He cannot, however, know everything simultaneously and must advert to whatever he wishes to know. At MN 90.8 the Buddha says that it is possible to know and see all, though not simultaneously, and at AN 4:24/ii.24 he claims to know all that can be seen, heard, sensed, and cognized. This is understood by the Theravāda commentators as an assertion of omniscience in the qualified sense. See too in this connection Miln 102–7."
Post Reply