Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

santa100 wrote:... This is understood by the Theravāda commentators as...
...which is exactly what's been mentioned repeatedly... the assertion requires commentarial referents, and otherwise has nothing to do with the degree of freedom from the asavas.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Daverupa wrote:
"...which is exactly what's been mentioned repeatedly... the assertion requires commentarial referents, and otherwise has nothing to do with the degree of freedom from the asavas."

Which is fine with me. You've probably noticed all my posts so far, I don't dispute the elimination of the asavas of the arahants as any less than that of the Buddha. I do however, consistently emphasize the point the Buddha did go further than any of His disciples in attaining other capabilities (and I'm quite liberal in word usage, call it omniscience or samma-sambodhi or whatever you see fit). To me, it'd be wrong to say that the range/scope of attainments of the Noble disciples match exactly that of the Buddha. They only match the Buddha in regard to the specific domain of the ending of asavas. This has no contradiction to what Ven. Bodhi said, and also what the Theravada exegetical tradition said. It's that simple..
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:(No. 8 in that link, for example, is utterly problematic.)
May be problematic in the realm of ivory tower Buddhist studies, but it isn't problematic for Theravāda Buddhism.
daverupa wrote:...which is exactly what's been mentioned repeatedly... the assertion requires commentarial referents, and otherwise has nothing to do with the degree of freedom from the asavas.
A mahābodhisatta is concerned with the long term development of the pāramīs in order to realize sammāsambodhi, not the elimination of the āsavas during this dispensation.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It is mind reading, not omniscience.
And how do you know this?
It is what the text clearly describes.
The Theravāda tradition maintains that it's referring to omniscience.
I know, and I am not contesting that.
The Theravāda tradition also commonly explains that omniscience is one of the definitions of the term bodhi.
You have not shown that to be the case. And certainly you have not supported that with direct quotes from the suttas, which is what I am talking about, not the later sectarian stuff.
Moreover, all Buddhist traditions maintain that the Buddha was omniscient and that this is one of the qualities that differentiates a Buddha's awakening from that of an arahant disciple. You're attempting to reject a foundational Buddhist tenet that's well over 2000 years old, considered important enough to be included in the Pāli canon,
I am not rejecting anything. I am simply pointing to what the suttas say and how the term bodhi is used by the Buddha as he relates it to himself AND the arahants in the suttas. That after the death of the Buddha there was movement in how the Buddha was to be understood is well know and is certainly demonstrable even using tradition texts such as the Kathavatthu, which addresses these movements. And in this the Theravada was certainly not exempt from valorizing the Buddha, drawing a separation between the Buddha and the arahants that was not there in the suttas.
as well as in Ven. Walpola Rahula's Basic Points Unifying the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna which was unanimously approved at the First Congress of the World Buddhist Sangha Council.
That's nice; however, it really does not address the point I have raised.

Also, now for the fifth time, I ask you: Can we assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:A mahābodhisatta is concerned with the long term development of the pāramīs in order to realize sammāsambodhi, not the elimination of the āsavas during this dispensation.
However, it seems that from a Theravadin point of view concerning the question of bodhi, a bodhisatta cannot attain bodhi until the moment of his full awakening. So, what is being developed up until the time of full awakening actually is not bodhi, but it certainly the requisites for the attainment of bodhi.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote: . . .
I am not going to convince you, nor you me; however, that is really beside my point: The bodhi attained by the Buddha is no different from that attained by the arahants.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"I am not going to convince you, nor you me; however, that is really beside my point: The bodhi attained by the Buddha is no different from that attained by the arahants"

Of course, it's not part of my intention to begin with, and that's also beside my point: The arahants and the Buddha attained bodhi, the Buddha went the extra miles and attained samma-sambodhi..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"I am not going to convince you, nor you me; however, that is really beside my point: The bodhi attained by the Buddha is no different from that attained by the arahants"

Of course, it's not part of my intention to begin with, and that's also beside my point: The arahants and the Buddha attained bodhi, the Buddha went the extra miles and attained samma-sambodhi..
So, there are two bodhis?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Neither same nor different, read my original post again..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Neither same nor different, read my original post again..
Do explain again, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DNS
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by DNS »

Which "nibbana" does a samma-sam-buddha "go to" and which "nibbana" does an arahant "go to" ? ;) (rhetorical question because . . .)

They are the same.
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Do explain again, please"

Below is the very first post I wrote for this thread:
"If I may interject, I think both Tilt and Nana are referring to aspects that aren't really at odds with each other. The Buddha definitely shares the same "sambodhi" as His disciples arahants. This bodhi's scope includes the total elimination of all outflows and defilements, which enable one to put an end to suffering and samsara. However, the Buddha went much further than His disciples arahants and attained what is called "samma-sambodhi", the Perfect/Complete Enlightenment, which, beside the total elimination of outflows/defilements, the scope expands to includes the supernormal abilities only unique to Buddhas (knowing the limits of other people's faculties, direct knowledge of all that's heard and seen, etc..). So, at the end of the day, it's really up to the practitioner's aspiration to choose a path for themselves. S/He can choose the path of "sambodhi", or s/he can choose the path of "samma-sambodhi", they are not completely different since they share the same base scope, just like they are not completely the same since the later would require A LOT more effort and time.."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"Do explain again, please"

Below is the very first post I wrote for this thread:
"If I may interject, I think both Tilt and Nana are referring to aspects that aren't really at odds with each other. The Buddha definitely shares the same "sambodhi" as His disciples arahants. This bodhi's scope includes the total elimination of all outflows and defilements, which enable one to put an end to suffering and samsara. However, the Buddha went much further than His disciples arahants and attained what is called "samma-sambodhi", the Perfect/Complete Enlightenment, which, beside the total elimination of outflows/defilements, the scope expands to includes the supernormal abilities only unique to Buddhas (knowing the limits of other people's faculties, direct knowledge of all that's heard and seen, etc..). So, at the end of the day, it's really up to the practitioner's aspiration to choose a path for themselves. S/He can choose the path of "sambodhi", or s/he can choose the path of "samma-sambodhi", they are not completely different since they share the same base scope, just like they are not completely the same since the later would require A LOT more effort and time.."
bodhi, as the Buddha uses it, does not include the powers. The powers are what the Buddha uses to break through the ignorance but they are not bodhi, awakening, but what is realized is no different from that which the sambodhi, the complete perfect awakening, nibbana, the arahant realizes. I have quoted the suttas above. Look at the language the Buddha uses. samma-sambodhi points to the fact that the Buddha, by himself, awoke to the Four Noble Truth, but what he realized and how he did it is what what the Buddha taught for us to do. The suttas are quite straightforward about that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

THe suttas are quite clear in mentioning the 10 epithets of the Buddha, 2 of which are: arahant And samma-sambodhi. The power, if you will, is part of the samma-sambodhi package, not the bodhi package. Also, your used the word "complete perfect awakening" is meant for samma-sambodhi ( samma: full/complete/perfect And sambodhi: self-awakening); while sambodhi without the "samma" is tranlasted as "self-awakening"..
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Assaji
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Assaji »

Speaking of Ven. Mahakassapa - it's inspiring to read how he has attained Arahantship:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el345.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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