I have noticed that in Pali words containing the combination "th", the "h" is usually not pronounced -- as in Savatthi, Tathagata, et cetera.
However, in listening to mp3 recordings of various suttas, I have invariably heard the reader pronounce the name Anathapindika with the "h".
Does Anathapindika's name represent an exception to what I perceive as general rule, or is it being mispronounced? A small point, to be sure, but I am curious.
With metta,
Justin
"th" in Pali
"th" in Pali
Cultivate generosity, the life of peace,
and a mind of boundless love.
Itivuttuka 16
and a mind of boundless love.
Itivuttuka 16
Re: "th" in Pali
Hello Jason,
My understanding is that there are regional differences nowadays on how pali words are pronounced (in practice) ... a little like the various accents round the world of english-speakers ~ american, scottish, irish, australian, south african etc. Maybe Ajahn will correct me if this is wrong.
Alphabet and Pronunciation
Alphabet:
The Pāḷi alphabet consist of 41 letters: 8 vowels, the niggahīta (ṁ), and 32 consonants.
Vowels: a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, e, o
Niggahīta: ṁ
Consonants: k, kh, g, gh, ṅ, c, ch, j, jh, ñ, ṭ, ṭh, ḍ, ḍh, ṇ, t, th, d, dh, n, p, ph, b, bh, m, y, r, l, ḷ, v, s, h
Pronunciation: (pronounced similar to the example)
a as in but, hut; a in banana
ā as in father, cart, heart
i as in bit, tip, it
ī as in machine, keen, clean
u as in put, foot, push
ū as in rude, boot, youth
e as in way, fade, cape (long always except before a double consonant in which it is short - as in bed, bet, head)
o as in home, bone, know (long always except before a double consonant in which it is short as in not, saw, all)
ṁ as ṅ or m - pure nasal without release through the mouth (It is most characteristically stated as a humming sound produced when the vocal cords are vibrating and the air is emitted through the nose only. There are two prominent pronunciations which depends on the community).
k as in skin, cook, candle
kh as in king, backhand
g as in girl, good, gift
gh as in log-head, big-house
ṅ as in sing, finger, ink
c as in choose, chin, discharge
ch as in ranch-house, ranch-hand
j as in jug, gem, judge
jh as in hedge-hog
ñ as Spanish señor
ṭ as t but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
ṭh as th but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
ḍ as d but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
ḍh as dh but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
ṇ as n but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
t as in stay, stand (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
th as in light-house, ant-hill (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
d as in dog, dirt, door (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
dh as in mad-house, red-house (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
n as in name, north, no (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
p as in space, spend
ph as in top-hat, upheavel, uphill
b as in bag, born, bed
bh as in lab-host, rub-hard
m as in him, mother, map
y as in yes, year, you
r as in ram, ring, roam (pronounced smoothy and similar to english r, retroflex prositioning)
l as in lamp, light
ḷ same as l but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
v a labiodental approximant, a sort of in-between the english v and w.
s as in sit, story, smoke
h as in inherent, voiced fricative
* the digraphs dh, etc., are to be taken as single sounds, the h representing aspiration - double consonants are pronounced seperately the first having no release): example - dd in mad dog, gg in big game, etc., or pronounced long: example - nn in unnecessary
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
My understanding is that there are regional differences nowadays on how pali words are pronounced (in practice) ... a little like the various accents round the world of english-speakers ~ american, scottish, irish, australian, south african etc. Maybe Ajahn will correct me if this is wrong.
Alphabet and Pronunciation
Alphabet:
The Pāḷi alphabet consist of 41 letters: 8 vowels, the niggahīta (ṁ), and 32 consonants.
Vowels: a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, e, o
Niggahīta: ṁ
Consonants: k, kh, g, gh, ṅ, c, ch, j, jh, ñ, ṭ, ṭh, ḍ, ḍh, ṇ, t, th, d, dh, n, p, ph, b, bh, m, y, r, l, ḷ, v, s, h
Pronunciation: (pronounced similar to the example)
a as in but, hut; a in banana
ā as in father, cart, heart
i as in bit, tip, it
ī as in machine, keen, clean
u as in put, foot, push
ū as in rude, boot, youth
e as in way, fade, cape (long always except before a double consonant in which it is short - as in bed, bet, head)
o as in home, bone, know (long always except before a double consonant in which it is short as in not, saw, all)
ṁ as ṅ or m - pure nasal without release through the mouth (It is most characteristically stated as a humming sound produced when the vocal cords are vibrating and the air is emitted through the nose only. There are two prominent pronunciations which depends on the community).
k as in skin, cook, candle
kh as in king, backhand
g as in girl, good, gift
gh as in log-head, big-house
ṅ as in sing, finger, ink
c as in choose, chin, discharge
ch as in ranch-house, ranch-hand
j as in jug, gem, judge
jh as in hedge-hog
ñ as Spanish señor
ṭ as t but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
ṭh as th but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
ḍ as d but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
ḍh as dh but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
ṇ as n but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
t as in stay, stand (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
th as in light-house, ant-hill (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
d as in dog, dirt, door (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
dh as in mad-house, red-house (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
n as in name, north, no (but with the rip of the tongue at the back of the teeth)
p as in space, spend
ph as in top-hat, upheavel, uphill
b as in bag, born, bed
bh as in lab-host, rub-hard
m as in him, mother, map
y as in yes, year, you
r as in ram, ring, roam (pronounced smoothy and similar to english r, retroflex prositioning)
l as in lamp, light
ḷ same as l but with the tongue tip curled back just under the hard palate (retroflection)
v a labiodental approximant, a sort of in-between the english v and w.
s as in sit, story, smoke
h as in inherent, voiced fricative
* the digraphs dh, etc., are to be taken as single sounds, the h representing aspiration - double consonants are pronounced seperately the first having no release): example - dd in mad dog, gg in big game, etc., or pronounced long: example - nn in unnecessary
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: "th" in Pali
Hi Justin,
I'm not clear what you mean by "pronounced" and "not pronounced". The "h" indicates an aspirated sound, as in Thai (not pronounce "thigh", but as "tie" with aspiration).
As Cooran says, there will be variations. There will also be errors...
The problem with many of these words is figuring out the syllables.
A-na-tha-pin-di-ka not A-nat-hap-in-di-ka ...
Metta
Mike
I'm not clear what you mean by "pronounced" and "not pronounced". The "h" indicates an aspirated sound, as in Thai (not pronounce "thigh", but as "tie" with aspiration).
As Cooran says, there will be variations. There will also be errors...
The problem with many of these words is figuring out the syllables.
A-na-tha-pin-di-ka not A-nat-hap-in-di-ka ...
Metta
Mike
Re: "th" in Pali
Perhaps "pronounced" was the wrong term to use. I suppose I had English in mind, in that the "th" sound we have in words like "thimble" or "thin" is absent in how words like Tathagata are rendered..."tah-TAH-gah-tah" instead of "tah-THAA [as in "thimble"]-gah-tah". I was curious how this applied to Anathapindika, given how the pronunciations I've heard spoken aloud seem to conflict with the use of the aspirant "th".
In any case, the pronunciation guide was most helpful, and I shall practice my aspirants more dilligently!
With metta,
Justin
In any case, the pronunciation guide was most helpful, and I shall practice my aspirants more dilligently!
With metta,
Justin
Cultivate generosity, the life of peace,
and a mind of boundless love.
Itivuttuka 16
and a mind of boundless love.
Itivuttuka 16
Re: "th" in Pali
I don't think "th" should ever be pronounced as in "thin". It is a "t" sound, as in "tin", but with aspriration.
Mike
Mike
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Re: "th" in Pali
Hi Justin,
I'm a native hindi speaker, and I'd assume that the sounds/pronunciations are the same as Pali. The "th" sound in Pali has no equivalent in english, so its impossible to convey the correct pronunciation by writing. I'd suggest you look at the following video for Hindi alphabets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koEs1w2Sz0A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The second letter from the top is the sound you are looking for. And in "Ta-thaa-gata", the "thaa" is the sound of "th" with an additional "aa" in the end. I think whoever pronounces it differently is making a mistake(unless Pali has different pronunciations than hindi).
Given my assumptions,IMHO, the examples "light-house" and "ant-hill" are a bit misleading.
Metta,
Dhammabodhi
(this "dh" sound is also an aspirated sound, if you want I can send you the link for the right pronunciation)
I'm a native hindi speaker, and I'd assume that the sounds/pronunciations are the same as Pali. The "th" sound in Pali has no equivalent in english, so its impossible to convey the correct pronunciation by writing. I'd suggest you look at the following video for Hindi alphabets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koEs1w2Sz0A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The second letter from the top is the sound you are looking for. And in "Ta-thaa-gata", the "thaa" is the sound of "th" with an additional "aa" in the end. I think whoever pronounces it differently is making a mistake(unless Pali has different pronunciations than hindi).
Given my assumptions,IMHO, the examples "light-house" and "ant-hill" are a bit misleading.
Metta,
Dhammabodhi
(this "dh" sound is also an aspirated sound, if you want I can send you the link for the right pronunciation)
"Take rest, take rest."-S.N.Goenka
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Re: "th" in Pali
Yet I still find myself incorrectly saying Theravada with the 'th' as in thin.mikenz66 wrote:I don't think "th" should ever be pronounced as in "thin". It is a "t" sound, as in "tin", but with aspriration.
I know it is supposed to be 'Terravada' but old habits die hard.
I think it has to do with incorrect spellings from the original translations from Asian languages to English; for example, Taoism should never have been spelled with a "T" and of course is pronounced "Daoism." Same thing with incorrect spellings with Peking, etc.
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Re: "th" in Pali
th is pronounced as in hothouse, hot-house. tathāgata. TAT-hā-gata.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: "th" in Pali
Not at all with Sanskrit and Pali..I think it has to do with incorrect spellings from the original translations from Asian languages to English;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "th" in Pali
Hmm, I would put it a little differently.TheDhamma wrote: I think it has to do with incorrect spellings from the original translations from Asian languages to English; for example, Taoism should never have been spelled with a "T" and of course is pronounced "Daoism." Same thing with incorrect spellings with Peking, etc.
The problem for English speakers is that
1. We don't recognise the particular phonetic spelling system being used and assume English pronounciation.
2. We don't have the range of aspirated/unaspirated sounds that Asian languages have.
Using the convention that "d" or "t" are unaspriated, and "dh" and "th" are aspirated then "Tao" is a reasonable way to spell it. The problem is that in English "T" followed by "ao" (almost?) always comes out as aspirated.
On the other hand "d" in English (almost?) always comes out as unaspirated.
If one wants to pronounce "Tao" as intended one has to make a clipped "t" sound, which to an English speaker is hard to pick from an unaspriated "d".
On the other hand, an English speaker has trouble aspirating the "Dh" in "Dhamma".
"Peking/Beijing" is quite a different issue. The former is an Anglicization of the Cantonese pronunciation, whereas the latter is the Pinyin (the modern phonetic spelling) for standard Chinese ("Putongwhua" or "Mandarin"). In both cases the first consonant is unaspirated, so it is much more purcussive than how most English people would say it, which tends to come out (wrongly) like: "Bay - jing" or "Pee- king"...
I'm not so up with the technicalities in the Chinese dialects, but I do know that in Thai there are both (using the unaspirated/aspirated spelling convention) d , t, dh, th
It's not easy for an English speaker to distinguish d and t or dh and th.
Mike
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Re: "th" in Pali
Thanks for the explanations, tilt and Mike. Pronunciations are not my forté.mikenz66 wrote: "Peking/Beijing" is quite a different issue. The former is an Anglicization of the Cantonese pronunciation, whereas the latter is the Pinyin (the modern phonetic spelling) for standard Chinese ("Putongwhua" or "Mandarin"). In both cases the first consonant is unaspirated, so it is much more purcussive than how most English people would say it, which tends to come out (wrongly) like: "Bay - jing" or "Pee- king"...
I should have said it is more to do with the anglicizations or to the mistakes in understanding the correct pronunciations, not the translations.
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Re: "th" in Pali
The above answers are very good.
The only thing I have to add: There is no "th" in Pali. It's pronounced PAH-LEE.
The only thing I have to add: There is no "th" in Pali. It's pronounced PAH-LEE.
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Re: "th" in Pali
A dental t does in fact occur in English, for example in the word 'eighth'. But it is the least common pronunciation of t. More usually the consonant will be realized as an alveolar obstruent, [tʰ] (as in 'tea'), or a post-alveolar one, [ṯ] (as in 'tree').Dhammabodhi wrote:I'm a native hindi speaker, and I'd assume that the sounds/pronunciations are the same as Pali. The "th" sound in Pali has no equivalent in english, so its impossible to convey the correct pronunciation by writing.
Indeed. Modern attempts to show the pronunciation of Indic aspirates by comparing them with English words (th = hothouse, ph = flophouse, bh = clubhouse, dh = madhouse etc.) are always misleading, for 'th' in Pali, Sanskrit etc. doesn't represents two distinct syllables as it does in these suggested English words.Given my assumptions,IMHO, the examples "light-house" and "ant-hill" are a bit misleading.
For example, 'hothouse would be realized by most English speakers as ['hɒt-haʊs] or ['hɒt-tʰaʊs], with variants of this consisting only in modifications to the vowels (as in, say, Yorkshire or Mississippi) or the replacement of the obstruent with a glottal stop (as in Cockney). There is no variant afaik in which the 'th' is unsegmented. Not even in Southern Asian forms of English is 'hothouse' pronounced ['hɒt̪ʰ-ʔaʊs] or ['hɒ-t̪ʰaʊs].
The Pali aspirates may be phonetically represented as follows:
kh - [kʰ]
gh - [gʰ]
ch - [cʰ]
jh - [ɟʰ]
ṭh - [ʈʰ]
ḍh - [ɖʰ]
th - [t̪ʰ]
dh - [d̪ʰ]
ph - [pʰ]
bh - [bʰ]
ḷh - [ɭʰ]
The little subscript h, [ʰ], in each of these words indicates that the consonant is aspirated. In the case of 'th', aspiration means that when the tongue-tip leaves the teeth to release the sound [t̪] the vocal cords don't start to vibrate immediately. Instead, there is a short delay in which breath flows out of the mouth more or less unimpeded, thus giving us [t̪ʰ].
Best wishes,
'd̪ʰʌm-mʌː-'nʌn-d̪əʊ 'bʰik-kʰʊ
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
- tiltbillings
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Re: "th" in Pali
Sure, in that it is not two distinct syllables, but focusing on the t-h sound is workable, which is a lot more than one can say for the IPA, an exercise in the severely arcane.Modern attempts to show the pronunciation of Indic aspirates by comparing them with English words (th = hothouse, ph = flophouse, bh = clubhouse, dh = madhouse etc.) are always misleading, for 'th' in Pali, Sanskrit etc. doesn't represents two distinct syllables as it does in these suggested English words.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Dhammanando
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- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
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Re: "th" in Pali
I think there are plenty of other non-arcane methods that are better than 'hothouse', 'madhouse' etc. For example:tiltbillings wrote:Sure, in that it is not two distinct syllables, but focusing on the t-h sound is workable, which is a lot more than one can say for the IPA, an exercise in the severely arcane.
th: like 'tea' but with the tip of the tongue striking the back of the top teeth rather than the palate.
ch: like Bob Marley's pronunciation of the c in 'Caribbean' when he sings Buffalo Soldier.
jh: like Linton Kwesi Johnson's pronunciation of the g in 'gather' when he's reciting his poem Di Great Insohreckshan
bh: as the waiter in your local Indian restaurant pronounces the bh in bhindi masala.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)