Path to Buddhahood

[David N. Snyder]

Which "nibbana" does a samma-sam-buddha "go to" and which "nibbana" does an arahant "go to" ? (rhetorical question because . . .)

They are the same.

[santa100]

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Do explain again, please"

Below is the very first post I wrote for this thread:
"If I may interject, I think both Tilt and Nana are referring to aspects that aren't really at odds with each other. The Buddha definitely shares the same "sambodhi" as His disciples arahants. This bodhi's scope includes the total elimination of all outflows and defilements, which enable one to put an end to suffering and samsara. However, the Buddha went much further than His disciples arahants and attained what is called "samma-sambodhi", the Perfect/Complete Enlightenment, which, beside the total elimination of outflows/defilements, the scope expands to includes the supernormal abilities only unique to Buddhas (knowing the limits of other people's faculties, direct knowledge of all that's heard and seen, etc..). So, at the end of the day, it's really up to the practitioner's aspiration to choose a path for themselves. S/He can choose the path of "sambodhi", or s/he can choose the path of "samma-sambodhi", they are not completely different since they share the same base scope, just like they are not completely the same since the later would require A LOT more effort and time.."

[tiltbillings]

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Do explain again, please"

Below is the very first post I wrote for this thread:
"If I may interject, I think both Tilt and Nana are referring to aspects that aren't really at odds with each other. The Buddha definitely shares the same "sambodhi" as His disciples arahants. This bodhi's scope includes the total elimination of all outflows and defilements, which enable one to put an end to suffering and samsara. However, the Buddha went much further than His disciples arahants and attained what is called "samma-sambodhi", the Perfect/Complete Enlightenment, which, beside the total elimination of outflows/defilements, the scope expands to includes the supernormal abilities only unique to Buddhas (knowing the limits of other people's faculties, direct knowledge of all that's heard and seen, etc..). So, at the end of the day, it's really up to the practitioner's aspiration to choose a path for themselves. S/He can choose the path of "sambodhi", or s/he can choose the path of "samma-sambodhi", they are not completely different since they share the same base scope, just like they are not completely the same since the later would require A LOT more effort and time.."

bodhi, as the Buddha uses it, does not include the powers. The powers are what the Buddha uses to break through the ignorance but they are not bodhi, awakening, but what is realized is no different from that which the sambodhi, the complete perfect awakening, nibbana, the arahant realizes. I have quoted the suttas above. Look at the language the Buddha uses. samma-sambodhi points to the fact that the Buddha, by himself, awoke to the Four Noble Truth, but what he realized and how he did it is what what the Buddha taught for us to do. The suttas are quite straightforward about that.

[santa100]

THe suttas are quite clear in mentioning the 10 epithets of the Buddha, 2 of which are: arahant And samma-sambodhi. The power, if you will, is part of the samma-sambodhi package, not the bodhi package. Also, your used the word "complete perfect awakening" is meant for samma-sambodhi ( samma: full/complete/perfect And sambodhi: self-awakening); while sambodhi without the "samma" is tranlasted as "self-awakening"..

[Dmytro]

Speaking of Ven. Mahakassapa - it's inspiring to read how he has attained Arahantship:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el345.html

[cooran]

Hello all,

Epithets for the Buddha are found in the traditional Recollection of the Buddha practice, based on the classical text on this meditation - which is the passage on Buddhanusati in the Visuddhimagga. ("Path of Purification") :

Recollection of the Buddha
http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/budhsati.html

with metta
Chris

[tiltbillings]

THe suttas are quite clear in mentioning the 10 epithets of the Buddha, 2 of which are: arahant And samma-sambodhi. The power, if you will, is part of the samma-sambodhi package, not the bodhi package. Also, your used the word "complete perfect awakening" is meant for samma-sambodhi ( samma: full/complete/perfect And sambodhi: self-awakening); while sambodhi without the "samma" is tranlasted as "self-awakening"..

Let me respond:

Sambodhi

Sambodhi (f.) [saŋ+bodhi1] the same as sambodha, the highest enlightenment PTS DICT pg 694.

Sambodha

Sambodha [saŋ+bodha] enlightenment, highest wisdom, awakening; the insight belonging to the three higher stages of the Path PTS DICT pg 693.

Saŋ˚

Saŋ˚ (indecl.) [prefix; Idg. *sem one; one & the same, cp. Gr. o(malo/s even, a(/ma at one, o(mo/s together; Sk. sama even, the same; samā in the same way; Av. hama same=Goth. sama, samap together; Lat. simul (=simultaneous), similis "re -- sembling." Also Sk. sa (=sa2) together=Gr. a( -- a) -- (e. g. a)/koitis); Av. ha -- ; and samyak towards one point=P. sammā. -- Analogously to Lat. semel "once," simul, we find sa˚ as numeral base for "one" in Vedic sakṛt "once"=P. sakid (& sakad), sahasra 1000=P. sahassa, and in adv. sadā "always," lit. "in one"] prefix, implying conjunction & completeness. PTS DICT pg 655.

Sambodhi is a synonym for nibbana, the complete, perfect freedom from greed, hatred, and ignorance.

Bhikkhus, the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82

Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223

A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana]. MN i 104

The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1

There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. MN i 15

"So I [the Buddha], monks being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...."
...

"Then the group of five monks, being thus exhorted, this instructed by me [the Buddha], being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana [nirvana] -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...." Majjhima Nikaya I 167 and 173.

"Come, this is the Way, this is the course I [the Buddha] have followed until, having realized by my own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into Brahma-faring, I have made it known. Come you too, follow likewise, so that you also, having realized by your own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into the Brahma-faring, may abide in it." -- AN I 168-69.

He [the Buddha] says: 'Here! This is the path, this is the practice that, having practiced, I make known the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life, having directly known & realized it for myself. Come! You, too, practice in such a way that you will remain in the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life [attaining nibbana], having directly known & realized it for yourselves.' Thus the Teacher teaches the Dhamma, and others practice, for Suchness. And there are countless hundreds of them, countless thousands of them, countless hundreds of thousands of them. This being the case … this business of going-forth … one that benefits countless beings…. AN I 168-69. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 3-060.html

'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"

'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage [yogakkhemo=nibbana]. 'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."' -- AN II ii 5.

Digha Nikaya 28, Sampasadaniya Sutta:

Sariputta states: All those Arahant Buddhas [arahanto sammasambuddha] of the past attainted to sambodhi by abandoning the five hinderances, defilements of the mind which weaken understanding, having firmly established the four foundations of mindfulness, and realized the seven factors of awakening as they really are. All the Arahant Buddhas of the future will do likewise, and you, Lord, who are now the Arahant, fully-awakened Buddha, have done the same.

The thing worth noting is that the way of attainment of awakening/sambodhi, by Buddhas past present and future, described here is exactly what the Buddha taught as the path of practice to his followers.

[cooran]

Tilt said: it is best that you que up you aquatic fowl in an orderly manner.

Heheh - I presume you mean ''your'' not 'you'? So this would mean 'Line up your ducks?' .... I'm never sure with Americanisms.

with metta
Chris

[tiltbillings]

Tilt said: it is best that you que up you aquatic fowl in an orderly manner.

Heheh - I presume you mean ''your'' not 'you'? So this would mean 'Line up your ducks?' .... I'm never sure with Americanisms.

with metta
Chris

Fixed. At least we don't have dropbears to worry about.

[whynotme]

Hi everyone,

First of all, some of you may disagree with others but by keeping the polite disscussion, you open many things for the readers, so, thank you all.

IMHO, the Buddha just explained the Path in its fullest, with all that can be done, and all knowledges that can be attained. Obviously very few of his pupils attained any significant part of it.

Dear Dmytro,

I have two questions:
First, so in your opinion, theoretically, his disciples can achieve everything the Buddha achieve including omiscience.. if they work hard enough?
Second, no matter what the answer of the first question, why did very few of his pupils attain any significant part of it. They lacked hard work, will, intention, interest or merit?

Regards

[tiltbillings]

Hi everyone,

First of all, some of you may disagree with others but by keeping the polite disscussion, you open many things for the readers, so, thank you all.

IMHO, the Buddha just explained the Path in its fullest, with all that can be done, and all knowledges that can be attained. Obviously very few of his pupils attained any significant part of it.

Dear Dmytro,

I have two questions:
First, so in your opinion, theoretically, his disciples can achieve everything the Buddha achieve including omniscience.. if they work hard enough?

Omniscience, doctrinally, would be denied for the arahant, but if you look here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 4&#p149864 there is a discussion of Kassapa, which I will repeat:

19a] I [the Buddha], monks dwell, having actualized here and now the higher knowledges [abinna], freed through the heart/mind [cetovimutti] and freed through wisdom [pa~n~navimutti]. Kassapa, too, monks, dwells having actualized here and now the higher knowledges, freed through the heart/mind and freed through wisdom. - SN II, 214

19b] What is of interest in this text is what precedes this passage ([19a]). There are 15 items listed, with the above quoted item ([19a]) being the very last one listed, and it is the only one that is indicative of awakening. The first 9 have to do with the attainment of jhana meditation, the remaining six are the abhiññás.

See:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm

• (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha),
• (2) divine ear (dibba-sota),
• (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñána),
• (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivásánussati),
• (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu),
• (6) extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya).


Now, the Buddha does not say his attainments are greater or that Kassapa’s are lesser. The exact same language is being used, and this is not unique in the Pali suttas. If anything, it indicates an equality.

Number 6 (#15 in the Kassapa list and 19a] above), however, is not worded in terms of the extinction of the cankers (asavas), in this list, but in terms of attainment of knowledge, liberation and wisdom. What the Buddha knows, Kassapa, too, knows (in terms of the destruction of the asavas and the Four Noble Truths).

The preceding 14 items are worded in this way:

Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I [the Buddha] wish to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, I can. Kassapa, too, to whatever extent he wishes to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, he can. Sn II 210-14.

If Kassapa did not attained omniscience as the Theravadins define it, he pushed mighty close to it. Essentially outside of the question of omniscience, there is not a power the Buddha acheived that technically is not possible for others to attain, but to achieve them all, is really only for the Buddha, which gives him his special place:

Did we not tell you, brahmin, "there is no single bhikkhu, brahmin, who possesses in each & every way all those qualities that were possesses by Blessed One, accomplished and fully enlightened." For the Blessed One was the arouser of the unarisen path, the begetter of the unbegotten path, the expounder of the unexpounded path, the knower of the path, the expert with regard to the path, adept at the path. And now his disciples follow the path and become endowed with it after him." -- MN iii 15; TMLDB page 886.

They lacked hard work, will, intention, interest or merit?

Probably not lack of hard word, but likely, to give a classical answer, not having merit accumulated over life-times of effort. While the awakening, the liberation, attained by the arahant is the same as that of the Buddha's, to be the one who first breaks through the bounds of ignorance requires a tremendous amount of power, thereby making it easier for those who come after to follow in those footsteps.

[whynotme]

Thank you tiltbillings, I find that you make things very clear and easy to understand

Regards

[ancientbuddhism]

Omniscience, doctrinally, would be denied for the arahant, but if you look here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 4&#p149864 there is a discussion of Kassapa, which I will repeat ...

Also have a look at the Susīma Sutta (SN.12.70). The newly ordained Susīma, when meeting a large number of arahants, was perplexed when they responded to his inquiry that they had not attained paranormal abilities, but rather “We are released through wisdom” (…paññāvimutta kho mayaṃ…). Susīma brought this to the Buddha, who simply confirmed their claim and told Susīma the basic outline of requisites for contemplative knowledge toward liberation:

“…pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇa”nti.”

“…first there is knowledge of the structure of phenomena, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.”

Susīma still did not understand, so the Buddha gives an instruction on tilakkhaṇa and paṭiccasamuppāda, and then asks Susīma if “having known and seen thus, are you endowed with different kinds of powers?” (api pana tvaṃ, susima, evaṃ jānanto evaṃ passanto anekavihitaṃ iddhividhaṃ paccanubhosi) to which Susīma responds “no, Venerable sir” to this and all of the paranormal items that he had erroneously assumed were connected with the arahants' nibbāna.

It seems that this sutta points directly to a repeated misunderstanding in the present discussion. Susīma assumed that these arahants would possess paranormal powers with their liberation, quite possibly a common enough occurrence to lend to this assumption. Also, the Buddha does not correct Susīma’s assumption that an arahant could possess these, but only his assumption that they should possess these powers as part of liberation.

[Dmytro]

Dear Whynotme,

First, so in your opinion, theoretically, his disciples can achieve everything the Buddha achieve including omiscience.. if they work hard enough?
Second, no matter what the answer of the first question, why did very few of his pupils attain any significant part of it. They lacked hard work, will, intention, interest or merit?

As Ñāṇa quoted in this thread: "The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it." ( AN 4.77 )

I won't go into conjectures here.
I don't understand why a disciple would try to achieve everything the Buddha achieved over the course of so many lives.
There's a certain smell of superiority in the aspiration to become necessarily the best.
IMHO, Nibbana solves any questions of superiority. If possible, one should cease the rebirth, and attain at least the Stream-entry in this life.
If not, one can aspire for Nibbana in the future - but there's no guarantee without the Stream-entry.

Imagine for a moment a flock of birds caught in the net. It would be the strongest and cleverest bird who would find a way out. Other birds should just follow the way.

[santa100]

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Essentially outside of the question of omniscience, there is not a power the Buddha acheived that technically is not possible for others to attain, but to achieve them all, is really only for the Buddha, which gives him his special place"

Thank you Tilt. I'm glad that you also share this view, which is pretty much all I've wanted to emphasize throughout the thread. From now 'til a great many eaons into the future, there'll be many noble disciples following our great Buddha's footsteps and become arahants. And out of those great number of Worthy Ones, there'll be a man who will be able to match the Buddha's capabilities in every single aspect, His name is Metteyya, our great Future Buddha..

[Ñāṇa]

It is mind reading, not omniscience.

And how do you know this?

It is what the text clearly describes.

The ability to read is not a sufficient qualification for understanding the suttas. Your interpretive method is insufficient.

The Theravāda tradition maintains that it's referring to omniscience.

I know, and I am not contesting that.

You are contesting the commentarial understanding of AN 4.24, etc. When you say:

I am not talking about Theravada tradition.

It's quite evident that you are talking about re-inventing the Buddha. I consider such revisionism to be unnecessary and to lack lineage and authority.

Also, now for the fifth time, I ask you: Can we assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?

I've already answered this question: The suttas were never intended to provide a systematic analysis of every aspect of the dhamma. That is what the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Peṭakopadesa, and the Nettippakaraṇa are for. Trying to analyze and comment on the suttas without recourse to these texts is like groping around in the dark. This type of interpretive approach is probably the single biggest problem occurring within the context of Theravāda Buddhism today.

[tiltbillings]

The ability to read is not a sufficient qualification for understanding the suttas.

Of course not, which is why I did a careful exegetical survey of the texts that addressed the issue at which I was looking.

Your interpretive method is insufficient.

Not that you have shown. And certainly based upon what you said earlier, you should be able to disprove my point using the suttas alone.

The Theravāda tradition maintains that it's referring to omniscience.

I know, and I am not contesting that.

You are contesting the commentarial understanding of AN 4.24, etc. When you say:

I am not talking about Theravada tradition.

It's quite evident that you are talking about re-inventing the Buddha. I consider such revisionism to be unnecessary and to lack lineage and authority.

Re-inventing the Buddha? Hardly. Simply looking at the Buddha and the arahant in terms of what the very earlest -- and non-sectarian -- texts have to say.

Also, now for the fifth time, I ask you: Can we assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?

I've already answered this question: The suttas were never intended to provide a systematic analysis of every aspect of the dhamma. That is what the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Peṭakopadesa, and the Nettippakaraṇa are for. Trying to analyze and comment on the suttas without recourse to these texts is like groping around in the dark. This type of interpretive approach is probably the single biggest problem occurring within the context of Theravāda Buddhism today.

Thank you for your clarification.

[tiltbillings]

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Essentially outside of the question of omniscience, there is not a power the Buddha acheived that technically is not possible for others to attain, but to achieve them all, is really only for the Buddha, which gives him his special place"

Thank you Tilt. I'm glad that you also share this view, which is pretty much all I've wanted to emphasize throughout the thread. From now 'til a great many eaons into the future, there'll be many noble disciples following our great Buddha's footsteps and become arahants. And out of those great number of Worthy Ones, there'll be a man who will be able to match the Buddha's capabilities in every single aspect, His name is Metteyya, our great Future Buddha..

I probably do not share it so much as I acknowledge it. The points I have made are rather simple. Bodhi, which is another way of speaking of nibbana, is not omniscience and all those other powers, and the bodhi attained by the Buddha is what he taught could be attained by becoming arahant. You do not not have to agree with that, but it is what the texts show.

[santa100]

Tiltbillings wrote:
"I probably do not share it so much as I acknowledge it. The points I have made are rather simple. Bodhi, which is another way of speaking of nibbana, is not omniscience and all those other powers, and the bodhi attained by the Buddha is what he taught could be attained by becoming arahant. You do not not have to agree with that, but it is what the texts show."

Thank you for the clarification. I agree that you do not have to agree with me. My point is just as simple, for also from what the texts show, becoming arahant sure is sufficient to put an end to suffering but not to attain every single aspect of capabilities like those of the Buddha..

[tiltbillings]

Tiltbillings wrote:
"I probably do not share it so much as I acknowledge it. The points I have made are rather simple. Bodhi, which is another way of speaking of nibbana, is not omniscience and all those other powers, and the bodhi attained by the Buddha is what he taught could be attained by becoming arahant. You do not not have to agree with that, but it is what the texts show."

Thank you for the clarification. I agree that you do not have to agree with me. My point is just as simple, for also from what the texts show, becoming arahant sure is sufficient to put an end to suffering but not to attain every single aspect of capabilities like those of the Buddha..

Putting an end to suffering is what the Buddha was all about, becoming no less than what he became, awake, buddha.