Hello all,
Epithets for the Buddha are found in the traditional Recollection of the Buddha practice, based on the classical text on this meditation - which is the passage on Buddhanusati in the Visuddhimagga. ("Path of Purification") :
Recollection of the Buddha
http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/budhsati.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with metta
Chris
Path to Buddhahood
Re: Path to Buddhahood
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood
Let me respond:santa100 wrote:THe suttas are quite clear in mentioning the 10 epithets of the Buddha, 2 of which are: arahant And samma-sambodhi. The power, if you will, is part of the samma-sambodhi package, not the bodhi package. Also, your used the word "complete perfect awakening" is meant for samma-sambodhi ( samma: full/complete/perfect And sambodhi: self-awakening); while sambodhi without the "samma" is tranlasted as "self-awakening"..
- Sambodhi
Sambodhi (f.) [saŋ+bodhi1] the same as sambodha, the highest enlightenment PTS DICT pg 694.
- Sambodha
Sambodha [saŋ+bodha] enlightenment, highest wisdom, awakening; the insight belonging to the three higher stages of the Path PTS DICT pg 693.
- Saŋ˚
Saŋ˚ (indecl.) [prefix; Idg. *sem one; one & the same, cp. Gr. o(malo/s even, a(/ma at one, o(mo/s together; Sk. sama even, the same; samā in the same way; Av. hama same=Goth. sama, samap together; Lat. simul (=simultaneous), similis "re -- sembling." Also Sk. sa (=sa2) together=Gr. a( -- a) -- (e. g. a)/koitis); Av. ha -- ; and samyak towards one point=P. sammā. -- Analogously to Lat. semel "once," simul, we find sa˚ as numeral base for "one" in Vedic sakṛt "once"=P. sakid (& sakad), sahasra 1000=P. sahassa, and in adv. sadā "always," lit. "in one"] prefix, implying conjunction & completeness. PTS DICT pg 655.
- Bhikkhus, the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82
- Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223
- A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana]. MN i 104
- The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1
- There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. MN i 15
- "So I [the Buddha], monks being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...."
...
"Then the group of five monks, being thus exhorted, this instructed by me [the Buddha], being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana [nirvana] -- won freedom from birth [ajata], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...." Majjhima Nikaya I 167 and 173.
- "Come, this is the Way, this is the course I [the Buddha] have followed until, having realized by my own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into Brahma-faring, I have made it known. Come you too, follow likewise, so that you also, having realized by your own super-knowledge the matchless plunge into the Brahma-faring, may abide in it." -- AN I 168-69.
- He [the Buddha] says: 'Here! This is the path, this is the practice that, having practiced, I make known the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life, having directly known & realized it for myself. Come! You, too, practice in such a way that you will remain in the unexcelled gaining of a footing in the holy life [attaining nibbana], having directly known & realized it for yourselves.' Thus the Teacher teaches the Dhamma, and others practice, for Suchness. And there are countless hundreds of them, countless thousands of them, countless hundreds of thousands of them. This being the case … this business of going-forth … one that benefits countless beings…. AN I 168-69. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 3-060.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- 'Two things, o monks, I [the Buddha] came to know well: not to be content with good states of mind, so far achieved and to be unremitting in the struggle for the goal. Unremittingly, indeed, did I struggle and I resolved: "Let skin, sinews and bones remain; let flesh and blood in the body dry up: yet there shall be no ceasing of energy, manly energy, manly effort!"
'Through heedfulness have I won sambodhi, through effort have I won the unsurpassable security from bondage [yogakkhemo=nibbana]. 'If you, O monks, will struggle unremittingly and resolve: "Let skin ... [as above] manly effort" -- then you, too, O monks, will soon realize here and now, through your own direct knowledge, that unequaled goal of the holy life."' -- AN II ii 5.
- Digha Nikaya 28, Sampasadaniya Sutta:
Sariputta states: All those Arahant Buddhas [arahanto sammasambuddha] of the past attainted to sambodhi by abandoning the five hinderances, defilements of the mind which weaken understanding, having firmly established the four foundations of mindfulness, and realized the seven factors of awakening as they really are. All the Arahant Buddhas of the future will do likewise, and you, Lord, who are now the Arahant, fully-awakened Buddha, have done the same.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Path to Buddhahood
Heheh - I presume you mean ''your'' not 'you'? So this would mean 'Line up your ducks?' .... I'm never sure with Americanisms.Tilt said: it is best that you que up you aquatic fowl in an orderly manner.
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Path to Buddhahood
Fixed. At least we don't have dropbears to worry about.cooran wrote:Heheh - I presume you mean ''your'' not 'you'? So this would mean 'Line up your ducks?' .... I'm never sure with Americanisms.Tilt said: it is best that you que up you aquatic fowl in an orderly manner.
with metta
Chris
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Path to Buddhahood
Hi everyone,
First of all, some of you may disagree with others but by keeping the polite disscussion, you open many things for the readers, so, thank you all.
I have two questions:
First, so in your opinion, theoretically, his disciples can achieve everything the Buddha achieve including omiscience.. if they work hard enough?
Second, no matter what the answer of the first question, why did very few of his pupils attain any significant part of it. They lacked hard work, will, intention, interest or merit?
Regards
First of all, some of you may disagree with others but by keeping the polite disscussion, you open many things for the readers, so, thank you all.
Dear Dmytro,Dmytro wrote: IMHO, the Buddha just explained the Path in its fullest, with all that can be done, and all knowledges that can be attained. Obviously very few of his pupils attained any significant part of it.
I have two questions:
First, so in your opinion, theoretically, his disciples can achieve everything the Buddha achieve including omiscience.. if they work hard enough?
Second, no matter what the answer of the first question, why did very few of his pupils attain any significant part of it. They lacked hard work, will, intention, interest or merit?
Regards
Please stop following me
- tiltbillings
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Path to Buddhahood
Omniscience, doctrinally, would be denied for the arahant, but if you look here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 4&#p149864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; there is a discussion of Kassapa, which I will repeat:whynotme wrote:Hi everyone,
First of all, some of you may disagree with others but by keeping the polite disscussion, you open many things for the readers, so, thank you all.
Dear Dmytro,Dmytro wrote: IMHO, the Buddha just explained the Path in its fullest, with all that can be done, and all knowledges that can be attained. Obviously very few of his pupils attained any significant part of it.
I have two questions:
First, so in your opinion, theoretically, his disciples can achieve everything the Buddha achieve including omniscience.. if they work hard enough?
- 19a] I [the Buddha], monks dwell, having actualized here and now the higher knowledges [abinna], freed through the heart/mind [cetovimutti] and freed through wisdom [pa~n~navimutti]. Kassapa, too, monks, dwells having actualized here and now the higher knowledges, freed through the heart/mind and freed through wisdom. - SN II, 214
19b] What is of interest in this text is what precedes this passage ([19a]). There are 15 items listed, with the above quoted item ([19a]) being the very last one listed, and it is the only one that is indicative of awakening. The first 9 have to do with the attainment of jhana meditation, the remaining six are the abhiññás.
See:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/abhinna.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
• (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha),
• (2) divine ear (dibba-sota),
• (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñána),
• (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivásánussati),
• (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu),
• (6) extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya).
Now, the Buddha does not say his attainments are greater or that Kassapa’s are lesser. The exact same language is being used, and this is not unique in the Pali suttas. If anything, it indicates an equality.
Number 6 (#15 in the Kassapa list and 19a] above), however, is not worded in terms of the extinction of the cankers (asavas), in this list, but in terms of attainment of knowledge, liberation and wisdom. What the Buddha knows, Kassapa, too, knows (in terms of the destruction of the asavas and the Four Noble Truths).
The preceding 14 items are worded in this way:
Bhikkhus, to whatever extent I [the Buddha] wish to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, I can. Kassapa, too, to whatever extent he wishes to attain this jhana or know with divine eye which is purified and surpasses human the death and rebirth of being born into this or that state, he can. Sn II 210-14.
Did we not tell you, brahmin, "there is no single bhikkhu, brahmin, who possesses in each & every way all those qualities that were possesses by Blessed One, accomplished and fully enlightened." For the Blessed One was the arouser of the unarisen path, the begetter of the unbegotten path, the expounder of the unexpounded path, the knower of the path, the expert with regard to the path, adept at the path. And now his disciples follow the path and become endowed with it after him." -- MN iii 15; TMLDB page 886.
Probably not lack of hard word, but likely, to give a classical answer, not having merit accumulated over life-times of effort. While the awakening, the liberation, attained by the arahant is the same as that of the Buddha's, to be the one who first breaks through the bounds of ignorance requires a tremendous amount of power, thereby making it easier for those who come after to follow in those footsteps.They lacked hard work, will, intention, interest or merit?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Path to Buddhahood
Thank you tiltbillings, I find that you make things very clear and easy to understand
Regards
Regards
Please stop following me
- ancientbuddhism
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Re: Path to Buddhahood
tiltbillings wrote:Omniscience, doctrinally, would be denied for the arahant, but if you look here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 4&#p149864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; there is a discussion of Kassapa, which I will repeat ...
Also have a look at the Susīma Sutta (SN.12.70). The newly ordained Susīma, when meeting a large number of arahants, was perplexed when they responded to his inquiry that they had not attained paranormal abilities, but rather “We are released through wisdom” (…paññāvimutta kho mayaṃ…). Susīma brought this to the Buddha, who simply confirmed their claim and told Susīma the basic outline of requisites for contemplative knowledge toward liberation:
- “…pubbe kho, susima, dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇa”nti.”
“…first there is knowledge of the structure of phenomena, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.”
It seems that this sutta points directly to a repeated misunderstanding in the present discussion. Susīma assumed that these arahants would possess paranormal powers with their liberation, quite possibly a common enough occurrence to lend to this assumption. Also, the Buddha does not correct Susīma’s assumption that an arahant could possess these, but only his assumption that they should possess these powers as part of liberation.
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Re: Path to Buddhahood
Dear Whynotme,
I won't go into conjectures here.
I don't understand why a disciple would try to achieve everything the Buddha achieved over the course of so many lives.
There's a certain smell of superiority in the aspiration to become necessarily the best.
IMHO, Nibbana solves any questions of superiority. If possible, one should cease the rebirth, and attain at least the Stream-entry in this life.
If not, one can aspire for Nibbana in the future - but there's no guarantee without the Stream-entry.
Imagine for a moment a flock of birds caught in the net. It would be the strongest and cleverest bird who would find a way out. Other birds should just follow the way.
As Ñāṇa quoted in this thread: "The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it." ( AN 4.77 )whynotme wrote:First, so in your opinion, theoretically, his disciples can achieve everything the Buddha achieve including omiscience.. if they work hard enough?
Second, no matter what the answer of the first question, why did very few of his pupils attain any significant part of it. They lacked hard work, will, intention, interest or merit?
I won't go into conjectures here.
I don't understand why a disciple would try to achieve everything the Buddha achieved over the course of so many lives.
There's a certain smell of superiority in the aspiration to become necessarily the best.
IMHO, Nibbana solves any questions of superiority. If possible, one should cease the rebirth, and attain at least the Stream-entry in this life.
If not, one can aspire for Nibbana in the future - but there's no guarantee without the Stream-entry.
Imagine for a moment a flock of birds caught in the net. It would be the strongest and cleverest bird who would find a way out. Other birds should just follow the way.
Re: Path to Buddhahood
Tiltbillings wrote:
"Essentially outside of the question of omniscience, there is not a power the Buddha acheived that technically is not possible for others to attain, but to achieve them all, is really only for the Buddha, which gives him his special place"
Thank you Tilt. I'm glad that you also share this view, which is pretty much all I've wanted to emphasize throughout the thread. From now 'til a great many eaons into the future, there'll be many noble disciples following our great Buddha's footsteps and become arahants. And out of those great number of Worthy Ones, there'll be a man who will be able to match the Buddha's capabilities in every single aspect, His name is Metteyya, our great Future Buddha..
"Essentially outside of the question of omniscience, there is not a power the Buddha acheived that technically is not possible for others to attain, but to achieve them all, is really only for the Buddha, which gives him his special place"
Thank you Tilt. I'm glad that you also share this view, which is pretty much all I've wanted to emphasize throughout the thread. From now 'til a great many eaons into the future, there'll be many noble disciples following our great Buddha's footsteps and become arahants. And out of those great number of Worthy Ones, there'll be a man who will be able to match the Buddha's capabilities in every single aspect, His name is Metteyya, our great Future Buddha..
Re: Path to Buddhahood
The ability to read is not a sufficient qualification for understanding the suttas. Your interpretive method is insufficient.tiltbillings wrote:It is what the text clearly describes.Ñāṇa wrote:And how do you know this?tiltbillings wrote:It is mind reading, not omniscience.
You are contesting the commentarial understanding of AN 4.24, etc. When you say:tiltbillings wrote:I know, and I am not contesting that.Ñāṇa wrote:The Theravāda tradition maintains that it's referring to omniscience.
It's quite evident that you are talking about re-inventing the Buddha. I consider such revisionism to be unnecessary and to lack lineage and authority.tiltbillings wrote:I am not talking about Theravada tradition.
I've already answered this question: The suttas were never intended to provide a systematic analysis of every aspect of the dhamma. That is what the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Peṭakopadesa, and the Nettippakaraṇa are for. Trying to analyze and comment on the suttas without recourse to these texts is like groping around in the dark. This type of interpretive approach is probably the single biggest problem occurring within the context of Theravāda Buddhism today.tiltbillings wrote:Also, now for the fifth time, I ask you: Can we assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?
- tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood
Of course not, which is why I did a careful exegetical survey of the texts that addressed the issue at which I was looking.Ñāṇa wrote: The ability to read is not a sufficient qualification for understanding the suttas.
Not that you have shown. And certainly based upon what you said earlier, you should be able to disprove my point using the suttas alone.Your interpretive method is insufficient.
Re-inventing the Buddha? Hardly. Simply looking at the Buddha and the arahant in terms of what the very earlest -- and non-sectarian -- texts have to say.You are contesting the commentarial understanding of AN 4.24, etc. When you say:tiltbillings wrote:I know, and I am not contesting that.Ñāṇa wrote:The Theravāda tradition maintains that it's referring to omniscience.
It's quite evident that you are talking about re-inventing the Buddha. I consider such revisionism to be unnecessary and to lack lineage and authority.tiltbillings wrote:I am not talking about Theravada tradition.
Thank you for your clarification.I've already answered this question: The suttas were never intended to provide a systematic analysis of every aspect of the dhamma. That is what the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Peṭakopadesa, and the Nettippakaraṇa are for. Trying to analyze and comment on the suttas without recourse to these texts is like groping around in the dark. This type of interpretive approach is probably the single biggest problem occurring within the context of Theravāda Buddhism today.tiltbillings wrote:Also, now for the fifth time, I ask you: Can we assume here that for you, one can never look to the suttas without filtering them through the commentaries?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Path to Buddhahood
I probably do not share it so much as I acknowledge it. The points I have made are rather simple. Bodhi, which is another way of speaking of nibbana, is not omniscience and all those other powers, and the bodhi attained by the Buddha is what he taught could be attained by becoming arahant. You do not not have to agree with that, but it is what the texts show.santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"Essentially outside of the question of omniscience, there is not a power the Buddha acheived that technically is not possible for others to attain, but to achieve them all, is really only for the Buddha, which gives him his special place"
Thank you Tilt. I'm glad that you also share this view, which is pretty much all I've wanted to emphasize throughout the thread. From now 'til a great many eaons into the future, there'll be many noble disciples following our great Buddha's footsteps and become arahants. And out of those great number of Worthy Ones, there'll be a man who will be able to match the Buddha's capabilities in every single aspect, His name is Metteyya, our great Future Buddha..
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Path to Buddhahood
Tiltbillings wrote:
"I probably do not share it so much as I acknowledge it. The points I have made are rather simple. Bodhi, which is another way of speaking of nibbana, is not omniscience and all those other powers, and the bodhi attained by the Buddha is what he taught could be attained by becoming arahant. You do not not have to agree with that, but it is what the texts show."
Thank you for the clarification. I agree that you do not have to agree with me. My point is just as simple, for also from what the texts show, becoming arahant sure is sufficient to put an end to suffering but not to attain every single aspect of capabilities like those of the Buddha..
"I probably do not share it so much as I acknowledge it. The points I have made are rather simple. Bodhi, which is another way of speaking of nibbana, is not omniscience and all those other powers, and the bodhi attained by the Buddha is what he taught could be attained by becoming arahant. You do not not have to agree with that, but it is what the texts show."
Thank you for the clarification. I agree that you do not have to agree with me. My point is just as simple, for also from what the texts show, becoming arahant sure is sufficient to put an end to suffering but not to attain every single aspect of capabilities like those of the Buddha..
- tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood
Putting an end to suffering is what the Buddha was all about, becoming no less than what he became, awake, buddha.santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"I probably do not share it so much as I acknowledge it. The points I have made are rather simple. Bodhi, which is another way of speaking of nibbana, is not omniscience and all those other powers, and the bodhi attained by the Buddha is what he taught could be attained by becoming arahant. You do not not have to agree with that, but it is what the texts show."
Thank you for the clarification. I agree that you do not have to agree with me. My point is just as simple, for also from what the texts show, becoming arahant sure is sufficient to put an end to suffering but not to attain every single aspect of capabilities like those of the Buddha..
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723