Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:The suttas clearly do not teach a path to sammasambuddha-hood. Where that sort of thing starts to take place is in the post-death of Buddha literature among the various schools of Buddhism that were popping up, where we start getting biographies (hagiographies) of the Buddha, a valorization of the Buddha that starts separating him from the arahant in terms of status in ways not found in the suttas. It is out of that that the idea of a bodhisatta path emerges, not out the direct teachings of the Buddha.
This is a thesis that can't be proven (and also an aspect of the "world view" that I referred to previously). It's based on an historical approach to text-critical analysis, which is speculative. If we are to take the suttas seriously, as you would like, the Buddha is said to occupy a historical position between earlier and later buddhas.
tiltbillings wrote:One can gain more powers, but being awake, buddha, is the only perfection that really matters.
Not for a Buddha it isn't. It's important to not conflate knowledges with nibbāna. Knowledge is the cause of realization (abhisamaya). Nibbāna is an object of knowledge.
tiltbillings wrote:Did the Buddha teach earning the "epithet of Samma-Sambuddha" as a goal?
A buddha teaches the sāvaka path. A buddha is an example for how to develop the mahābodhiyāna if one so chooses. Different vehicles, different levels of practice, different realization of knowledges.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
" Where that sort of thing starts to take place is in the post-death of Buddha literature among the various schools of Buddhism that were popping up, where we start getting biographies (hagiographies) of the Buddha, a valorization of the Buddha that starts separating him from the arahant in terms of status in ways not found in the suttas. It is out of that that the idea of a bodhisatta path emerges, not out the direct teachings of the Buddha."

And without "that sort of things", young prince Siddhattha would never become the the 28th Samma-Sambuddha. Kassapa Buddha would have no sucessor, and you wouldn't be here to "grade" the Buddha's capability..
In an interesting way you make my point. "Siddhattha" is a name not found in the suttas that I have yet to see (and I have looked), but it is clearly in the later hagiographic literature as are a number of the aspects of the "Buddha's story" that we assume are fact.

Something you might find interesting: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/jeffrey2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The suttas clearly do not teach a path to sammasambuddha-hood. Where that sort of thing starts to take place is in the post-death of Buddha literature among the various schools of Buddhism that were popping up, where we start getting biographies (hagiographies) of the Buddha, a valorization of the Buddha that starts separating him from the arahant in terms of status in ways not found in the suttas. It is out of that that the idea of a bodhisatta path emerges, not out the direct teachings of the Buddha.
This is a thesis that can't be proven (and also an aspect of the "world view" that I referred to previously). It's based on an historical approach to text-critical analysis, which is speculative. If we are to take the suttas seriously, as you would like, the Buddha is said to occupy a historical position between earlier and later buddhas.
And we should not take "history" at all seriously? It has nothing useful to tell us? Actually, given that the Buddha did not in the suttas clearly teach a bodhistta path is obvious, and where we start to see that sort of thing in in the sectarian literature that clearly post-dates the Buddha's death. It may not be 100% provable, but there is good evidence to support it it.
tiltbillings wrote:One can gain more powers, but being awake, buddha, is the only perfection that really matters.
Not for a Buddha it isn't. It's important to not conflate knowledges with nibbāna. Knowledge is the cause of realization (abhisamaya). Nibbāna is an object of knowledge.
Since the Buddha clearly equated bodhi with nibbana, I see no reason not to, as well.
tiltbillings wrote:Did the Buddha teach earning the "epithet of Samma-Sambuddha" as a goal?
A buddha teaches the sāvaka path. A buddha is an example for how to develop the mahābodhiyāna if one so chooses. Different vehicles, different levels of practice, different realization of knowledges.
But, of course, this is a sectarian set of classifications that the Buddha did not teach.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

A buddha teaches the sāvaka path. A buddha is an example for how to develop the mahābodhiyāna if one so chooses. Different vehicles, different levels of practice, different realization of knowledges.
Also, what Theravada text teaches "vehicles" and what Theravada text teaches that we can choose our "path?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Also, what Theravada text teaches "vehicles"
Dhammapāla explicitly mentions the three vehicles and the mahābodhiyāna in his Cariyāpiṭaka Aṭṭhakathā:
  • We now undertake a detailed explanation of the pāramīs for clansmen following the suttas who are zealously engaged in the practice of the vehicle to great enlightenment (mahābodhiyāna), in order to improve their skilfulness in accumulating the requisites for enlightenment....

    In detail, to those whose minds are disposed towards the enlightenment of disciples, he gives a discourse establishing and purifying them (in progress towards their goal) by elaborating upon the noble qualities of whichever among the following topics is appropriate.... So too, for beings whose minds are disposed towards the enlightenment of paccekabuddhas and of perfectly enlightened Buddhas, he gives a discourse establishing and purifying them in the two vehicles (leading to these two types of enlightenment) by elaborating upon the greatness of the spiritual power of those Buddhas, and by explaining the specific nature, characteristic, function, etc., of the ten pāramīs in their three stages.
tiltbillings wrote:and what Theravada text teaches that we can choose our "path?"
A Manual of the Excellent Man by Ven. Ledi Sayādaw:
  • I shall now outline the ten ordinary perfections, the ten higher perfections, and the ten supreme perfections....

    One who can fulfil only the first ten attains the enlightenment of a Noble Disciple. One who can fulfil only the first ten and the second ten attains the enlightenment of a Solitary Buddha. One who can fulfil all thirty attains Supreme Self-Enlightenment...

    What is meant by “the Noblest Aspiration”? It is the verbal and mental undertaking that the bodhisatta had made at some point of time aeons before taking up the perfections. It was made in these terms:

    “As a man who knows his own strength, what use is there to get to ‘the yonder shore’ (nibbāna) alone? I will atain to Supreme Knowledge and then convey men and devas to the yonder shore.”

    That was the pledge that sent the ten thousand universes reeling and echoing in applause. That was the bodhisatta’s earnest wish. For he intensely aspired to Supreme Self-Enlightenment thus:

    “Knowing the Truth, I will let others know it. Freeing myself from the world, I will free others. Having crossed over, I will enable others to cross.”

    This fervent and most daring aspiration is called “the Noblest Aspiration.”
And Dhammapāla adds:
  • Since it [i.e. the great aspiration to realize mahābodhi] has as its object the inconceivable plane of the Buddhas and the welfare of the whole immeasurable world of beings, it should be seen as the loftiest, most sublime and exalted distinction of merit, endowed with immeasurable potency, the root-cause of all the qualities issuing in Buddhahood. Simultaneous with its arising, the Great Man enters upon the practice of the vehicle to great enlightenment (mahābodhiyānapaṭipatti). He becomes fixed in his destiny, irreversible, and therefore properly gains the designation “bodhisattva.” His mind becomes fully devoted to the supreme enlightenment in its completeness, and his capacity to fulfill the training in the requisites of enlightenment becomes established. For when their aspiration succeeds, the Great Men correctly investigate all the pāramīs with their self-evolved knowledge which prefigures their future attainment of omniscience. Then they undertake their practice, and fulfill them in due order, as was done by the wise Sumedha when he made his great aspiration.
tiltbillings wrote:And we should not take "history" at all seriously?
Who's version of history?
tiltbillings wrote:Since the Buddha clearly equated bodhi with nibbana, I see no reason not to, as well.
Can you please provide a reference?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote: . . .
Question asked, eliciting what I expected. Dhammapala circa 5th cent CE, commenting centuries later on a post-death of the Buddha text. The references supplied (thank you for that) are really quite late. Quite simply, this is stuff the Buddha did not teach.
tiltbillings wrote:
And we should not take "history" at all seriously?
Who's version of history?
Any version of history that carefully looks facts, evidence and such and evaluates it in terms of context, immediate and broad.
Since the Buddha clearly equated bodhi with nibbana, I see no reason not to, as well.
Can you please provide a reference?
  • Bhikkhus, the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82
  • Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223
  • A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana]. MN i 104
  • The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1
  • There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. MN i 15
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
whynotme
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by whynotme »

Dmytro wrote:Dear Whynotme,
whynotme wrote:First, so in your opinion, theoretically, his disciples can achieve everything the Buddha achieve including omiscience.. if they work hard enough?
Second, no matter what the answer of the first question, why did very few of his pupils attain any significant part of it. They lacked hard work, will, intention, interest or merit?
As Ñāṇa quoted in this thread: "The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it." ( AN 4.77 )

I won't go into conjectures here.
I don't understand why a disciple would try to achieve everything the Buddha achieved over the course of so many lives.
There's a certain smell of superiority in the aspiration to become necessarily the best.
IMHO, Nibbana solves any questions of superiority. If possible, one should cease the rebirth, and attain at least the Stream-entry in this life.
If not, one can aspire for Nibbana in the future - but there's no guarantee without the Stream-entry.

Imagine for a moment a flock of birds caught in the net. It would be the strongest and cleverest bird who would find a way out. Other birds should just follow the way.
Thank you, I agree that Nibbana solves everything relates to superiority.

Regards
Please stop following me
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Question asked, eliciting what I expected. Dhammapala circa 5th cent CE, commenting centuries later on a post-death of the Buddha text. The references supplied (thank you for that) are really quite late.
You asked for Theravāda texts and that's what I offered.
tiltbillings wrote:Quite simply, this is stuff the Buddha did not teach.
It's based on passages narrated by the Buddha in the Pāli Nikāyas. For example, the Buddhavaṃsa:
  • While I was lying on the earth it was thus in my mind: If I so wished I could burn up my defilements today.

    What is the use while I (remain) unknown of realizing dhamma here? Having reached omniscience, I will become a Buddha in the world with the devas.

    What is the use of my crossing over alone, being a man aware of my strength? Having reached omniscience, I will cause the world together with the devas to cross over.

    By this act of merit of mine towards the supreme among men I will reach omniscience, I will cause many people to cross over.
And the Buddhāpadāna:
  • To the supreme enlightenment of the best of the Buddhas, to leaders of the world together with their Orders, I bowed down paying homage with joined hands.

    In the Buddha-realm, as many as are there the numerous jewels, both in the heaven above and on the earth below, I brought all to my mind.

    There on a silvery ground, I built a palace, many storied, jeweled, raised high to the sky,

    Having ornamented pillars, well executed, well divided and arranged, costly, a mass of gold, decorated with arched gateways and canopies.
And so on.
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: And we should not take "history" at all seriously?
Who's version of history?
Any version of history that carefully looks facts, evidence and such and evaluates it in terms of context, immediate and broad.
According to whom? The Pāli Nikāyas offer a fair bit of history relating to past buddhas, previous lives of the present Buddha, etc.
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Since the Buddha clearly equated bodhi with nibbana, I see no reason not to, as well.
Can you please provide a reference?
Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. MN i 15
These passages are good examples illustrating that the suttas are not comprehensive, systematic presentations.
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"In an interesting way you make my point. "Siddhattha" is a name not found in the suttas that I have yet to see (and I have looked), but it is clearly in the later hagiographic literature as are a number of the aspects of the "Buddha's story" that we assume are fact.
Something you might find interesting: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/jeffrey2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

No, I didn't make your point. Thank you for the informative link though. Nevertheless, the fact is clear that without the path of practice that you so rejected, there would be no 28th Samma-Sambuddha, and you would not be here to "evaluate" Him and His capabilities..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"In an interesting way you make my point. "Siddhattha" is a name not found in the suttas that I have yet to see (and I have looked), but it is clearly in the later hagiographic literature as are a number of the aspects of the "Buddha's story" that we assume are fact.
Something you might find interesting: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/jeffrey2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

No, I didn't make your point.
Of course you did.
Thank you for the informative link though. Nevertheless, the fact is clear that without the path of practice that you so rejected, there would be no 28th Samma-Sambuddha, and you would not be here to "evaluate" Him and His capabilities..
The path of practice you are inaccurately telling me that I rejected is a construct later than the suttas, and it clearly not taught by the Buddha. It is not anything I need to reject or accept.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Of course I didn't. The fact that our Buddha is the 28th Samma-Sambuddha is enough to prove there's a supreme path which honestly, doesn't need your approval..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Question asked, eliciting what I expected. Dhammapala circa 5th cent CE, commenting centuries later on a post-death of the Buddha text. The references supplied (thank you for that) are really quite late.
You asked for Theravāda texts and that's what I offered.
5th cent CE.
tiltbillings wrote:Quite simply, this is stuff the Buddha did not teach.
It's based on passages narrated by the Buddha in the Pāli Nikāyas. For example, the Buddhavaṃsa . . . And so on.
Based upon passage narrated by the Buddha? Maybe, but not that you have shown.
Ñāṇa wrote: According to whom? The Pāli Nikāyas offer a fair bit of history relating to past buddhas, previous lives of the present Buddha, etc.
Mythic history, something of which most religions have a great deal.
Ñāṇa wrote: These passages are good examples illustrating that the suttas are not comprehensive, systematic presentations.
The passages quoted look quite clear.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Of course I didn't.
Show us in the suttas where the name Siddhattha is used. The name comes out of a period after the death of the Buddha when the Buddhists were trying to fill the blanks, as it were, concerning the life and nature of the Buddha.

The fact that our Buddha is the 28th Samma-Sambuddha is enough to prove there's a supreme path which honestly, doesn't need your approval..
Did I say anything about approval? Nope. Since the Buddha did not teach a "supreme path," whose "supreme path?" The Theravadins? The Sarvastivadins? The Mahasanghikas? The Mahayana variations?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"Did I say anything about approval? Nope. Since the Buddha did not teach a "supreme path," whose "supreme path?" The Theravadins? The Sarvastivadins? The Mahasanghikas? The Mahayana variations?"

Why would I waste my time to show you anything? You've consistently denied the doctrine of everything single school out there, Mahayana, Vajrayana, and even Theravada..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"Did I say anything about approval? Nope. Since the Buddha did not teach a "supreme path," whose "supreme path?" The Theravadins? The Sarvastivadins? The Mahasanghikas? The Mahayana variations?"

Why would I waste my time to show you anything? You've consistently denied the doctrine of everything single school out there, Mahayana, Vajrayana, and even Theravada..
You are dodging the question. I have not denied anything. I understand and accept that the various schools have various bodhisatta doctrines, which are not necessarily compatible with each other. In following the Buddha's teachings, I do not need to believe in or work with any of those various bodhisatta doctrine. That other people do, and that other people find them of value in their practice, is a good thing, but they are not a necessity for everyone to either practice or to believe in.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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