Path to Buddhahood

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"You are dodging the question. I have not denied anything. I understand and accept that the various schools have various bodhisatta doctrines, which are not necessarily compatible with each other. In following the Buddha's teachings, I do not need to believe in or work with any of those various bodhisatta doctrine. That other people do, and that other people find them of value in their practice, is a good thing, but they are not a necessity for everyone to either practice or to believe in"

I am not dodging the question. You know exactly who I refer to. Actually, you are the one who has been dodging my question about the Buddha's omniscience when you mockingly asked if the Buddha was able to count the number of species in the world. And my question is very clear: "Are you absolutely certain that He is incapable of doing something like that?" Now, you said: "That other people do, and that other people find them of value in their practice, is a good thing, but they are not a necessity for everyone to either practice or to believe in", this is exactly my point in all my posts and the readers here can be my witnesses. It has not been your point until your very last post, you had been consistently brushing aside the bodhisatta path..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"You are dodging the question. I have not denied anything. I understand and accept that the various schools have various bodhisatta doctrines, which are not necessarily compatible with each other. In following the Buddha's teachings, I do not need to believe in or work with any of those various bodhisatta doctrine. That other people do, and that other people find them of value in their practice, is a good thing, but they are not a necessity for everyone to either practice or to believe in"

I am not dodging the question. You know exactly who I refer to. Actually, you are the one who has been dodging my question about the Buddha's omniscience when you mockingly asked if the Buddha was able to count the number of species in the world.
The question is was legitmate as a way of getting at what meant by the idea of omniscience. No mockery was intended.
And my question is very clear: "Are you absolutely certain that He is incapable of doing something like that?"
And with that I would go with Dharmakirti. The important thing is: Rather, inquire into his knowledge of that which is to be practised by us.
Now, you said: "That other people do, and that other people find them of value in their practice, is a good thing, but they are not a necessity for everyone to either practice or to believe in", this is exactly my point in all my posts and the readers here can be my witnesses. It has not been your point until your very last post, you had been consistently brushing aside the bodhisatta path..
That was a personal response to your unnecessary personal accusations. The bottom line is that the Buddha did not teach a bodhisatta doctrine. The bodhisatta doctrines are something that developed after the death of the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Tiltbillings wrote:
"That was a personal response to your unnecessary personal accusations. The bottom line is that the Buddha did not teach a bodhisatta doctrine. The bodhisatta doctrines are something that developed after the death of the Buddha"

If it seems like personal accusations then I apologize because it's never been my intention. My style has always been to tackle the idea and response, not the person. Ok, with that said, my bottom line is also simple, the bodhisatta path exists, and the lineage of Buddhas have been practicing it to bring the benefit of the Dhamma to a great multitude of sentient beings, for crying out loud, there is a great man practicing it up there right now in the Tusita heaven, and His name is Metteyya..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

santa100 wrote:Tiltbillings wrote:
"That was a personal response to your unnecessary personal accusations. The bottom line is that the Buddha did not teach a bodhisatta doctrine. The bodhisatta doctrines are something that developed after the death of the Buddha"

If it seems like personal accusations then I apologize because it's never been my intention.
No problem.
My style has always been to tackle the idea and response, not the person. Ok, with that said, my bottom line is also simple, the bodhisatta path exists, and the lineage of Buddhas have been practicing it to bring the benefit of the Dhamma to a great multitude of sentient beings, for crying out loud, there is a great man practicing it up there right now in the Tusita heaven, and His name is Metteyya..
Okay.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by santa100 »

Cool.. :group:
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Mythic history, something of which most religions have a great deal.
More Western secular assumptions.... Now you're not even willing to take the suttas seriously on their own terms.
tiltbillings wrote:In following the Buddha's teachings, I do not need to believe in or work with any of those various bodhisatta doctrine.
And this thread pertains to the bodhisatta path.
tiltbillings wrote:The important thing is: Rather, inquire into his knowledge of that which is to be practised by us.
Again, this thread pertains to the practice of the perfections in order to attain unsurpassable perfect awakening (anuttarāsammāsambodhi).
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Hello Nana

It's hard to believe that I'm reading the Nana who wrote "The jhanas acording to the pali Nikayas". I don't say this as a provocation, just as an unwanted disapointment.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Mythic history, something of which most religions have a great deal.
More Western secular assumptions.... Now you're not even willing to take the suttas seriously on their own terms.
I prefer my Dhamma sandiṭṭhiko (self evident; immediately apparent; visible here and now by one's direct experience), akāliko (timeless, immediate), ehipassiko (can be seen for one's self) and opanayiko, (leading to liberation). Does not believing in mythic histories that are not sandiṭṭhiko, akāliko, ehipassiko, and opanayiko undermine the core teachings of the Buddha? Not that anyone has shown. And why does Buddhism get to favor its mythic histories over other religions mythic histories? While mythic histories have their place and may function to be inspiring, they are not necessary --that anyone has shown --for liberation.
tiltbillings wrote:The important thing is: Rather, inquire into his knowledge of that which is to be practised by us.
Again, this thread pertains to the practice of the perfections in order to attain unsurpassable perfect awakening (anuttarāsammāsambodhi).
It started out that way, but it was worth a mention that the liberation the Buddha attained is no different from that attained by the arahants. I would have left it that, except you seemed to want to contest that, at length.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Thank you for your reply. Let me go directly to my argument.
And just because sambodhi is listed sequentially next to nibbana, do not mean the two are equivalent. Frequently in the sutta, a list is provided to show a progressive refinement rather than equivalence. For example, the sutta you quoted:
Bhikkhus, the seven factors of awakening, when developed and cultivated, lead to utter revulsion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to bodhi, to nibbana. SN v 82

Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223
The lists above show a progressive advancement of wisdom from revulsion to nibbana. Otherwise one can say revulsion is equivalent to nibbana, which is really odd.
My intepretation is as the word is defined: sambodhi is the highest enlightment and nibbana is cessation of dukkha. Sambodhi refers to the bursting of iqnorance and nibbanna refers to the end of suffering. There is fine difference between the two. While nibanna is unconditoned, sambodhi requires (thus conditioned by) the maturing of bojjhanga (the 7 factor of awakening). Thus sambodhi is not equivalent to nibanna.
The revulsion business is interesting, given the differences between the two texts, but cessation (nirodha) certainly seems to be a term indicating nibbana and it comes befor sambodhi. Also, I am taking (sam)bodhi as meaning complete insight into the Four Ennobling Truths. Here is a fuller look at my argument: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 4&#p149864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If you have not, take a look, please and if you wish we can continue this in a new thread. It is worth a careful, considered discussion and it promises to be interesting.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Mythic history, something of which most religions have a great deal.
More Western secular assumptions.... Now you're not even willing to take the suttas seriously on their own terms.
I prefer my Dhamma sandiṭṭhiko (self evident; immediately apparent; visible here and now by one's direct experience), akāliko (timeless, immediate), ehipassiko (can be seen for one's self) and opanayiko, (leading to liberation). Does not believing in mythic histories that are not sandiṭṭhiko, akāliko, ehipassiko, and opanayiko undermine the core teachings of the Buddha? Not that anyone has shown. And why does Buddhism get to favor its mythic histories over other religions mythic histories? While mythic histories have their place and may function to be inspiring, they are not necessary --that anyone has shown --for liberation.
Your secular prejudices are obvious.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I prefer my Dhamma sandiṭṭhiko (self evident; immediately apparent; visible here and now by one's direct experience), akāliko (timeless, immediate), ehipassiko (can be seen for one's self) and opanayiko, (leading to liberation). Does not believing in mythic histories that are not sandiṭṭhiko, akāliko, ehipassiko, and opanayiko undermine the core teachings of the Buddha? Not that anyone has shown. And why does Buddhism get to favor its mythic histories over other religions mythic histories? While mythic histories have their place and may function to be inspiring, they are not necessary --that anyone has shown --for liberation.
Your secular prejudices are obvious.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Hello Nana

It's hard to believe that I'm reading the Nana who wrote "The jhanas acording to the pali Nikayas". I don't say this as a provocation, just as an unwanted disapointment.
I relied on the Peṭakopadesa, Nettippakaraṇa, Paṭisambhidāmagga, and Vimuttimagga when writing that.

At any rate, the assumptions of Western secularism are also open to skeptical criticism.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Hello Nana

It's hard to believe that I'm reading the Nana who wrote "The jhanas acording to the pali Nikayas". I don't say this as a provocation, just as an unwanted disapointment.
I relied on the Peṭakopadesa, Nettippakaraṇa, Paṭisambhidāmagga, and Vimuttimagga when writing that.

At any rate, the assumptions of Western secularism are also open to skeptical criticism.
Please define what you mean by "Western secularism."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by daverupa »

Please include a list of pertinent assumptions.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
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Re: Path to Buddhahood

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The important thing is: Rather, inquire into his knowledge of that which is to be practised by us.
Again, this thread pertains to the practice of the perfections in order to attain unsurpassable perfect awakening (anuttarāsammāsambodhi).
It started out that way, but it was worth a mention that the liberation the Buddha attained is no different from that attained by the arahants. I would have left it that, except you seemed to want to contest that, at length.
Bodhi, nibbāna, and vimutti do not have identical meanings.
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