How can bodhisattva evade hell?

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How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby whynotme » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:18 am

Hi everyone,

While reading 'path to buddhahood', a thought was arisen in me. It seems bodhisattva accumulate massive merits while not seeing the eightfold path, while just random walking. The Buddha taught that even cakkavatti (the wheel turning king) is not assured from not being born in hell. To evade hell, at least sotapana is required.

From practical point of view, how can this be possible? How can bodhisattva evade hell? Is there 'a way' outside of eightfold path that can evade hell and the Buddha didn't talk anything about it? Or is he just extremely lucky? I don't believe in Mahayana theory that bodhisattva is superior to sotapanna and arahant, but instead, is inferior. His disciples were also having massive merit, but even his chief disciple, Moggallana at least once in hell according to sutta, and at least twice, if we count the legend that one time he killed his parents. How can a bodhisattva evade all things leading to hell while is still a normal person?

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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:54 am

It seems bodhisattva accumulate massive merits while not seeing the eightfold path, while just random walking.

whynotme,

I guess that is a great observing. To "be" a Bodhisattva does not mean that one is a noble one but more it is a indicate that one is still a worldlying.
In regard of Bodhisatta it is taught that one would not have an existence in hell which might be the side effect of the tendency intention that underlies such an striving.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby Aloka » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:58 am

Hi whynotme,

Are you refering to the Tibetan Buddhist book "Path to Buddhahood -Teachings on Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation" by Ringu Tulku ? If so, wouldn't it be better if you posted about it at the Dharma Wheel site ?

My personal opinion is that the worst "hell" is the one created by speculation in one's own mind.

Kind regards,

Aloka
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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:06 am

A Bodhisatta, during his career, escapes from being born in eighteen inauspicious states (atthārasa abhabbatthānāni). He is never born blind, deaf, insane, slobbery (elamūga) or crippled, or among savages (milakkkesu), in the womb of a slave, or as a heretic. He never changes his sex, is never guilty of any of the five ānantarikakammas, and never becomes a leper. If born as an animal, he never becomes less than a quail or more than an elephant. He is never born either among various classes of petas nor among the Kālakañjakas, neither in Avīci nor in the lokantaraka nirayas, neither as Māra, nor in worlds where there is no perception (asaññibhava), nor in the Suddhāvāsas, nor in the Arūpa worlds, nor ever in another Cakkavāla. SNA.i.50 f.

Bodhisatta
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby whynotme » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:01 am

Hanzze wrote:
A Bodhisatta, during his career, escapes from being born in eighteen inauspicious states (atthārasa abhabbatthānāni). He is never born blind, deaf, insane, slobbery (elamūga) or crippled, or among savages (milakkkesu), in the womb of a slave, or as a heretic. He never changes his sex, is never guilty of any of the five ānantarikakammas, and never becomes a leper. If born as an animal, he never becomes less than a quail or more than an elephant. He is never born either among various classes of petas nor among the Kālakañjakas, neither in Avīci nor in the lokantaraka nirayas, neither as Māra, nor in worlds where there is no perception (asaññibhava), nor in the Suddhāvāsas, nor in the Arūpa worlds, nor ever in another Cakkavāla. SNA.i.50 f.

Bodhisatta

Thanks, I know the orthordox doctrine about this, but I don't put my belief in later works, which is this doctrine is based on. If that doctrine is true and there is a case bhikkhu Ajita was a bodhisattva, why does it only appear in Khuddaka, a much later work? Of course it still maybe is true, but I want to ask other opinion and view and unorthordox explanations, whether it fits into this doctrine.

Also I found that palikanon references are extremely hard to find.

@ Aloka,

I meant another thread's name, not the book. Also, IMO, hell in suttas is much more fearful. No matter what one's mind, it is not much longer than a hundred of years, but life in hell is very long and the suffering is much more tenser.

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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:15 am

whynotme wrote:Also I found that palikanon references are extremely hard to find.

On the page of the link there are many/most references to the past lifes.

Maybe also useful: Vol 1: Anālayo: The Genesis of the Bodhisattva Ideal download

The Genesis of the Bodhisattva Ideal von Anālayo

179 pages, ISBN 978-3-937816-62-3
Hamburg Buddhist Studies 1, Hamburg University Press

In this book, Bhikkhu Anālayo investigates the genesis of the bodhisattva ideal, one of the most important concepts in the history of Buddhist thought. He brings together material from the corpus of the early discourses preserved mainly in Pāli and Chinese that appear to have influenced the arising of the bodhisattva ideal. Anālayo convincingly shows that the early sources do not present compassionate concern for others as a motivating force for the Buddha’s quest for awakening. He further offers an analysis of the only reference to Maitreya in the Pāli canon, showing that this reference is most likely a later addition. In sum, Bhikkhu Anālayo is able to delineate a gradual genesis of central aspects of the bodhisattva ideal by documenting (1) an evolution in the bodhisattva concept reflected in the early discourses, (2) the emergence of the notion of a vow to pursue the path to buddhahood, and (3) the possible background for the idea of a prediction an aspirant to buddhahood receives from a former buddha.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby Aloka » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:43 am

whynotme wrote:
@ Aloka,

I meant another thread's name, not the book. Also, IMO, hell in suttas is much more fearful. No matter what one's mind, it is not much longer than a hundred of years, but life in hell is very long and the suffering is much more tenser.

Regards


Oops sorry,whynotme, It wasn't very clear to me because I have the book with the same title.

As for 'life in hell', I prefer to focus on what's happening now.

I recently went to an excellent talk given by Ajahn Amaro at Amaravati monastery - and he was pointing out that the results of negative actions can be experienced in our mental states directly afterwards, rather than far away in some personal distant future.

Anyway, enjoy your discussion.


with kind wishes

Aloka _/\_
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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:53 am

How can bodhisattva evade hell?


They take Hwy 96 from Lansing to Brighton and then then the 23 from Brighton to Ann Arbor.
If a bodhisattva attempts to travel southeast from Lansing to Ann Arbor or northeast from Jackson to Brighton then there is a high probability of going to Hell.
https://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en
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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby whynotme » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:26 am

Ben wrote:
How can bodhisattva evade hell?


They take Hwy 96 from Lansing to Brighton and then then the 23 from Brighton to Ann Arbor.
If a bodhisattva attempts to travel southeast from Lansing to Ann Arbor or northeast from Jackson to Brighton then there is a high probability of going to Hell.
https://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en
kind regards,
Ben

lol, thank you

Seriously, I think there are many want to become sammasam buddha, and the ability to keep on the right track is actually the most important ability. I don't believe later works and I am trying to build an explanation using common sense, a clearer view into the bodhisattva. If the buddha confirmed someone will be the buddha in the future, why dont such important things appear in the sooner suttas consider all the small things they had?

Leave the later works aside, the dhamma eye only open when someone is at least a sotapanna and seeing all things as impermanent, the bodhisattva don't have the dhamma eye because he isn't a sotapanna, and also he don't have the ability to follow the safe path. I just want to find the true bodhisattva way behind all the myths and legends, a clearer and safer chance for anyone who wants to follow it.

If someone really want to go on the path, he should examine the path carefully, and doesn't put blind faith in where doubt should exist. Since the bodhisattva way is much harder, one should be more cautious about it and views it from as many angles as possible. Now the dhamma still exists, we can discuss about it, missing it one or several lives then even when one really wants and seeking it everywhere, he doesn't have a chance to doubt any more coz there is nothing left

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Re: How can bodhisattva evade hell?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:16 am

Maybe Ben meant, that if a Bodhisattva would drive car, it would lead him 100% to hell. Not that he killed many beings in that way, but caused by incredible wrong views which might underly such intentions in the name of...

Image
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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