Why consciousness is impermanent?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby purple planet » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:11 am

Why consciousness is impermanent ? and what is permanent ?

i thought what we are is the consciousness and that is the permanent thing - that and karma -no ?
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby appicchato » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:42 am

i thought what we are is the consciousness and that is the permanent thing - that and karma -no ?


No...these topics are too big (for me) to expound upon here Purple...although good ones to investigate...

Be well...
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby purple planet » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:54 am

I ask cause i read this : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

the Girimananda Sutta - and it is written there :

"And what, Ananda, is contemplation of impermanence? Herein, Ananda, a monk having gone to the forest or to the foot of a tree or to an empty house (lonely place) contemplates thus: 'Matter (visible objects) is impermanent; feeling or sensation is impermanent; perception is impermanent; formations are impermanent; consciousness is impermanent. Thus he dwells contemplating impermanence in these five aggregates.' This, Ananda, is called contemplation of impermanence



No...these topics are too big (for me) to expound upon here Purple...although good ones to investigate...


in my investigation consciousness is the most impermanent thing possible :jumping: :rofl:
thats what i get from my investigating

but what i understand is that we try to be consciousness all the time and that arahants are consciousness (mindful) all the time - is that not true ?
i heared this in several places - there is no soul no nothing just the observing of them ( consciousness ) - did i get that wrong ?

if its to big to answer then thats fine but i read in forums and they told me what i wrote
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby DAWN » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:57 am

Concsiousness is impermanent because it conditioned. Constructed
Nibbana is permanent and not conditioned. Not constructed

Consiousness is a picture
Nibbana is a canvas

A dhamma is a building
Concsiousness is a stairs
Nibbana is a groud
Last edited by DAWN on Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:58 am

Maybe this is useful to understand: Freedom From Buddha Nature
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby piotr » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:03 am

Hi,

    1. Look at your computer
    2. Then turn your head and look at something else
    3. What happened to the previous sight conciousness?
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby whynotme » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:32 am

purple planet wrote:Why consciousness is impermanent ? and what is permanent ?

i thought what we are is the consciousness and that is the permanent thing - that and karma -no ?

Dear purple planet

Consciousness is impermanent because there is something called death

Regards
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby equilibrium » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:32 am

whynotme wrote:Consciousness is impermanent because there is something called death

So if there is death.....and based on the teachings of the different planes of existence, your next life will be the results of this very life.....so how does death relate to this?

If there is death there should be no future life?...
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby DAWN » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:47 am

equilibrium wrote:
whynotme wrote:Consciousness is impermanent because there is something called death

So if there is death.....and based on the teachings of the different planes of existence, your next life will be the results of this very life.....so how does death relate to this?

If there is death there should be no future life?...


There is future life, but this future life will not called "whynotme".
Why?
Because future dhamma, fruit of "whynotme" kamma, will not have the same experiance, will not have the same name-and-form, the same memory of experiance, the same consciousness.

Consiousness of name-and-form that called "whynotme" will disapear with death.
Why?
Because when there is no aging-and-death, there is no consciousness.

Water reburns like a vapour
Vapour is water kamma
But vapour is not water

When consiousness of one dhamma ends, consciousness of other dhamma arise
When consiousness of water ands, consciousness of vapour arise
Thats why "Consciousness is impermanent becausethere is something called death"

If consciousness of dhammas would permanent, there would be no such concept like "death", but "changement of state", and we would be able to keep it in memory, to identify with it , to say "i remember my death and how i was change my state", but our memory is brain, our ego is brain, brain death with body, there is no memory after death.
Consiousness is impermanent cause Samsara is impermanent.
Samsara is impermanent cause Consciousness is impermanent.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby whynotme » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:17 am

Thank you DAWN,

Actually no one calls me whynotme, only on internet ppl call me whynotme

@ equilibrium,

OK, consciousness is impermanent because there is nibbana

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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:46 am

equilibrium wrote:
whynotme wrote:Consciousness is impermanent because there is something called death

So if there is death.....and based on the teachings of the different planes of existence, your next life will be the results of this very life.....so how does death relate to this?

If there is death there should be no future life?...

"When the aggregates arise, decay and die, O bhikkhus, every moment you are born, decay and die"

So are you still dying or do you live already?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:33 pm

piotr wrote:Hi,

    1. Look at your computer
    2. Then turn your head and look at something else
    3. What happened to the previous sight conciousness?

Hi,

I don't think this is a good example piotr. It only works if one accepts the idea that what one sees is a conglomeration of several somehow discrete sight consciousnesses.
As I see it, when I look at my computer and then turn my head and look at something else, what happens is, that eye-consciousness changed. It changed, but it is still there. The way I understand it, eye-consciousness (of my computer) did not cease when I had turned my head and another eye-consciousness (looking at something else) arose but eye-consciousness of visible form (my computer) just changed into eye-consciousness of visible form of something else instead of my computer. The eye-consciousness itself is still eye-consciousness which indeed changed but because of the visible form that had changed and not because consciousness had ceased and arose anew. Although this may show that you can easily see that consciousness is impermanent because it "changes while standing" but you don't see the arising nor the cessation of consciousness. That would be a lot more difficult to observe if you ask me.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby purple planet » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:57 pm

Just to make sure for you guys consciousness=mindfulness right ?
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby vinasp » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:09 pm

Hi Hanzze,

Quote: "When the aggregates arise, decay and die, O bhikkhus, every moment you are born, decay and die"

That is a very interesting statement. Can you provide a source, where does it come from?

I do not think that it is found in the any of the four main Nikaya's, but I could be wrong.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:11 pm

purple planet wrote:Just to make sure for you guys consciousness=mindfulness right ?

No, it's not purple planet. The Pali word sati = mindfulness and the Pali word viññāna = consciousness.

There are six classes of consciousness (viññāna) according to Sutta MN9:
"And what is consciousness? What is the origination of consciousness? What is the cessation of consciousness? What is the way of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness?
"There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness

And it says in MN18:
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
"Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises...
"Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises...
"Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises...
"Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises...


For "sati" (mindfulness) I recommend Sutta DN22. In the translator's introduction you can read:
The role of mindfulness is to keep the mind properly grounded in the present moment in a way that will keep it on the path.


best wishes, acinteyyo
Last edited by acinteyyo on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby vinasp » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:52 pm

Hi everyone,

I think that I have found the source of that quotation. It is from: What the Buddha
Taught, by Walpola Rahula.

"When the Aggregates arise, decay and die, O Bhikkhu, every moment you are born, decay
and die." (note 1) [from page 33.]

"Note 1. Prmj.I(PTS), p.78.'Khandhesu jayamanesu jiyamanesu miyamanesu ca khane khane
tvam bhikkhu jayase ca jiyase ca miyase ca.' This is quoted in the Paramatthajotika
Commentary as the Buddha's own words. So far I have not been able to trace this passage
back to its original text."

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:58 am

Because everything is impermanent.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:33 am

Everything?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby DAWN » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:37 am

Every "Thing" :namaste:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Why consciousness is impermanent?

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:03 am

Every "Thing"? Really?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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