Other conditions today???

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Hanzze
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:13 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:26 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Hanzze
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:28 am

:quote: what is the topic of your topic from your view? Or are the conditions (that you can accept things as on topic) still the same? Conditions do not change that fast, but they are changeable and change in any way. Lets look, maybe they are different tomorrow.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:34 am

Last edited by Cittasanto on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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daverupa
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby daverupa » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:32 pm

Question 1 - what are these other conditions?

One example might be the chronological and cultural distance we have from the texts, which earlier populations experienced differently, or even not at all when one goes back far enough.

Question 2 - why & how are they different to causes in the time of the Buddha?

The words used, the implicit understandings which were part and parcel of that milieu, the off-hand remarks and idiomatic expressions referring to a connotative realm wholly foreign to us today, all of this contributes to the distance mentioned in Q1.

Question 3 - how & why are the teachings disproved, irrelevant, not appropriate due to these new conditions?

The teachings, overall, require a careful approach in order to make salient the presuppositions and assumptions one brings to them, but this has probably always been true. I think the field is simply different, rather than better or worse, so the teachings are not necessarily disproved, irrelevant, or inappropriate due to this, but changes in emphasis can certainly be seen (in the West, meditation over merit-making, for example).

Question 4 - how is this outside world more materialistic/worse for practice/what ever else you believe it to be, and how does that change things in regard to the teachings & practice?

I think access to the internet and television and personal music players are all worth mentioning; the barrage of entertainment is certainly greater. The world is now largely one of readers, not oral traditions, which changes pedagogical approaches to the Dhamma. Most people have a fundamental outlook which is based on modern science, which gives them an altogether different world view about how things work. Other examples can be mentioned, but they are in alignment with being mere differences, per Q3.

Question 5 - how are we different (in relation to the Buddhas teachings & practice) to people back when the teachings took place? and why does this matter?

World-view as above, the linguistic differences which change how experience and conversation is naturally framed, and lack of familiarity with the colloquialisms of the day are all differences which increase the need for careful scrutiny of the texts.

Question 6#

It isn't necessarily easier or harder to get at the Dhamma, just different.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:48 pm

Hi Dave,
apart from certain differences I think we agree there are no substantial differences which drastically changes the ability to train in the Buddhas path today and get full results, more than (what I will call) aesthetic differences, which can cause at any point in time problems in understanding aspects of the training.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Alex123
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Alex123 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:37 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:57 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Hanzze
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:24 am

It is not wise to think that conditions are always the same, one could miss a importand chance, resting on "the conditions are always the same" (which is simply nonsens). When this is, is that and from the arising of this comes the arising of that.

So when ever you have the possibility use them, they might fade away. And when ever you don't have the possibilities, work on better condition. There is no better tomorow when you do not invest in better condition yet, and yet.

It could be that one is a not so blessed person yet:

* A person who is certain of regaining health in due time even though he does not take any medicine or treatment.
* A person who is certain of failing to make a recovery, and dying from the illness, no matter to what extent he may take medicines or treatment.
* A person who will recover if he takes the right medicine and treatment, but who will fail to recover and die if he fails to take the right medicine and treatment.

So see that would be a possibility to change ones conditions.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:33 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Hanzze
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:56 am

Oh, this are not my point, but maybe that is the reason why they are not "different/trueer today than at any other time" but to get this ones conditions need to be right prepared and that might be sometimes the reason for impossibility to gain further understanding.

But off-topic, how are you today? How are you conditions today? You sound a little more relaxed.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:23 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Hanzze
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:14 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:39 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Hanzze
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:42 am

Last edited by Hanzze on Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:45 am

as already pointed out these are irrelivant to the thread, as they do not show in any way a difference between now and 2500 years ago.
you should start a new thread if you wish to discuss this.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Hanzze
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:49 am

Do you think we would have had the possibility to care for each other via PC 2500 years ago? But you are right, even we would have care for each other 2500 years ago, it could be that our conditions would have been the same (shown in the (*)). Did you mean that? Damn, so how can we change our conditions today? So you think we have no way out?

How was the condition in your country 2500 years ago? How was your own 2500 years ago?
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:55 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Hanzze
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:59 am

Actually I think its a gratidute problem that is easy caused by thinking that the conditions are always the same and can waste a blessed situation, so I think its very worthy to go on here.

So why you like to reject that you/we/somebody else have other condition today as 2500 year ago?
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:16 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


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