Is it good/bad to disagree?

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Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby Jaidyn » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:49 am

Can we - being buddhists - engage in disagreement with each other and still follow the path with excellence, or have we practically misunderstood the teaching if we disagree with each other?

Is it better to always avoid taking a stance, and thereby avoid disagreeing with someone?

Is it sometimes good to disagree within the own group of buddhists?
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:05 am

Jaidyn, its very good "to disagree within the own group of buddhists" (look: Affection (love), but at least it's all more about Effacement.

But in the Abhidhamma we find also a similie with four Kinds of Bulls. One who rages against other herds but not his own, one who rages against his own herd but not other, one who rages against the own and against other and one who neither rage against his nor other herd.

I guess you find the best solution for you.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:16 am

Jaidyn wrote:Can we - being buddhists - engage in disagreement with each other and still follow the path with excellence, or have we practically misunderstood the teaching if we disagree with each other?

Is it better to always avoid taking a stance, and thereby avoid disagreeing with someone?

Is it sometimes good to disagree within the own group of buddhists?

the Buddha disagreed with people, calling a fool a fool!
he also killed people in the dispensation (not litterally) when they were too foolish!
Rhino sutta and elsewhere show this advise
Last edited by Cittasanto on Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:25 am

I would disagree if one thinks/advices to take the Buddha as a sample (like above), he did not directly adviced his disiples in such a way as far as I am aware. :jedi:
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby DAWN » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:33 am

It's the first thing that I was shoked when i come on buddhist forums first time. In my stereotype all shoudl be rose and happy, many flowers and love between bouddhists, but not.
Why?

Because this is a nature of all forums.
All disscution arise from difference of wievs.
All words arise from duality.
When there is agreement, there is noble silence.
When there i silence of agreement, there is no forum.

Actualy, on forums, avery one want to see others silent, so he say : SILENCE !
But when averybody say SILENCE ! There is a much of noize.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1rfv_ ... ence_music
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby Aloka » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:04 am

Jaidyn wrote:Can we - being buddhists - engage in disagreement with each other and still follow the path with excellence, or have we practically misunderstood the teaching if we disagree with each other?

Is it better to always avoid taking a stance, and thereby avoid disagreeing with someone?

Is it sometimes good to disagree within the own group of buddhists?


There's nothing wrong with having discussions - and possibly disagreements - about different aspects of Dhamma, as long as they don't turn into arguing just for the sake of intellectual one-upmanship.

It can all help with the learning process and its thanks to internet Buddhism that I was able to make a much needed change from one tradition to another.

If people aren't happy with it, there's always the option to turn off the computer and meditate instead !

.
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:07 am

Balisika Sutta: The Fisherman

"Monks, just as if a fisherman were to cast a baited hook into a deep lake and a fish with its eye out for food would swallow it — so that the fish that had thus swallowed the fisherman's hook would fall into misfortune & disaster, and the fisherman could do with it as he will — in the same way, there are these six hooks in the world for the misfortune of beings, for the slaughter of those that breathe. Which six?

"There are forms, monks, cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, he is said to be a monk who has swallowed Mara's hook, who has fallen into misfortune & disaster. The Evil One can do with him as he will.

"There are sounds cognizable via the ear...

"There are aromas cognizable via the nose...

"There are flavors cognizable via the tongue...

"There are tactile sensations cognizable via the body...

"There are ideas cognizable via the intellect — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, he is said to be a monk who has swallowed Mara's hook, who has fallen into misfortune & disaster. The Evil One can do with him as he will.

"Now, there are forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, he is said to be a monk who has not swallowed Mara's hook, who has snapped the hook, who has broken the hook, who has not fallen into misfortune & disaster. The Evil One cannot do with him as he will.

"There are sounds cognizable via the ear...

"There are aromas cognizable via the nose...

"There are flavors cognizable via the tongue...

"There are tactile sensations cognizable via the body...

"There are ideas cognizable via the intellect — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, he is said to be a monk who has not swallowed Mara's hook, who has snapped the hook, who has broken the hook, who has not fallen into misfortune & disaster. The Evil One cannot do with him as he will."


Here also a short essay: Reconciliation, Right & Wrong very useful for daily disputes and disagreements.
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby plwk » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:24 am

Does this sound familiar?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
"You don't understand this doctrine and discipline. I am the one who understands this doctrine and discipline." —
"How can you understand this doctrine and discipline?" —
"You're practising the wrong way. I'm practising the right way." —
"I'm being consistent. You're inconsistent." —
"What should have been said first you said last, what should have been said last you said first." —
"What you took so long to think out has been confuted." —
"Your doctrine has been refuted. You're defeated. Go, try to save your doctrine, or disentangle yourself now if you can" —

And most oft than not, it becomes as below...
At that time the bhikkhus of Kosambi had aroused a quarrel, and were quarrelling and disputing using rough words to each other.

Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One, worshipped the Blessed One and standing said thus. `Venerable sir, the bhikkhus of Kosambi have aroused a quarrel, and are quarrelling and disputing using rough words to each other. Good if the Blessed One approaches those bhikkhus out of compassion,'
The Blessed One accepted in silence, approached those bhikkhus and said. `Bhikkhus, give up quarrelling, using rough words and have no disputes.
When said thus, a certain bhikkhu said to the Blessed One. `Venerable sir, the lord of the Teaching, be unconcerned, keep away! May the Blessed One abide in pleasantness here and now! It's we that will be known in this quarrel, dispute and using rough words.

For the second time the Blessed One said'Bhikkhus, give up quarrelling, using rough words and have no disputes.
When this was said for the second time that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One. `Venerable sir, the lord of the Teaching, be unconcerned, keep away! May the Blessed One abide in pleasantness here and now! It's we that will be known in this quarrel, dispute and using rough words.

For the third time the Blessed One said 'Bhikkhus, give up quarrelling, using rough words and have no disputes.
When this was said for the third time that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One. `Venerable sir, the lord of the Teaching, be unconcerned, keep away! May the Blessed One abide in pleasantness here and now! It's we that will be known in this quarrel, dispute and using rough words.


Then this admonition comes...
The foolish do not consider the general opinion,
The fact, there will be nothing, when the Community is split.
Forgetful of the main aim and carried beyond
They do not listen to the words of the wise.

I'm scolded, beaten, defeated and carried away,
The hatred of those that bear such grudges are never appeased.
I'm scolded, beaten, defeated and carried away,
The hatred of those that do not bear such grudges are appeased.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.
Some do not know that we have to go from this world.
They that know it, appease their misapprehensions

Those that cut limbs, destroy life, carry away horses, cattle and wealth
And even ruin the country, they too turn round
Why shouldn't it happen to you?

If you gain a clever friend, a wise co-associate,
Overcoming all troubles, live with him mindfully.
If you do not gain a clever, wise co-associate,
Like the king that leaves behind his rulership and country

Go alone like an elephant to the Màtanga remote.
Living alone is superb, there should be no association with fools
Living alone, unconcerned no evil's done.
Like the elephant living in the Màtanga remote.


And His practice? ...the recluse Gotama abstains from such wrangling argumentation.
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:28 am

To remember and reflect for one self:

76-77
Regard him as one who points out treasure, the wise one who seeing your faults rebukes you. Stay with this sort of sage. For the one who stays with a sage of this sort, things get better, not worse. Let him admonish, instruct, deflect you away from poor manners. To the good, he's endearing; to the bad, he's not.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:38 am

Making accusations

017.07. Venerable Sàriputta addressed the bhikkhus: Friends, a bhikkhu desiring to accuse another should internally establish himself in these five things and then accuse another. What five?

I will talk at the right time not out of time. I will tell the truth not the untruth. I will talk politely, not roughly. I will tell the essential not the useless. I will talk with loving kindness not with anger. Friends, a bhikkhu desiring to accuse another should internally establish himself in these five things and then accuse another.

Friends, I see a certain person accused angrily at the inappropriate time. Accused untruthfully and angrily. Accused roughly with anger in the mind. Accused not for the welfare with an angryüind Accused angrily, without loving kindness.

Friends, to the bhikkhu accused not according to the Teaching non-remorse should be furnished in five ways. The venerable one was accused untimely, it is suitable for your non-remorse. The venerable one was accused untruthfully, it is suitable for your non-remorse. The venerable one was accused harshly, it is suitable for your non-remorse.

The venerable one was accused without essence, it is suitable for your non-remorse. The venerable one was accused without loving kindnss, it is suitable for your non-remorse. Friends, to the bhikkhu accused not according to the Teaching non-remorse should be furnished in these five ways.

Friends, to the bhikkhu accusing not according to the Teaching remorse should be furnished in five ways. The venerable one accused untimely, it is suitable for your remorse. The venerable one accused untruthfully, it is suitable for your remorse. The venerable one accused harshly, it is suitable for your remorse. The venerable one accused without essence, it is suitable for your remorse. The venerable one accused without loving kindnss, it is suitable for your remorse. Friends, to the bhikkhu accusing not according to the Teaching remorse should be furnished in these five ways.

Friends, the bhikkhu accusing not according to the Teaching should arouse remorse in these five ways. What is the reason? He should think not to accuse other bhikkhus untruthfully.

Friends, I see a certain person accused at the appropriate time without anger, Accused truthfully without anger. Accused gently without anger. Accused for the welfare without anger. Accused with a mind of loving kindness.

Friends, to the bhikkhu accused according to the Teaching remorse should be furnished in five ways. The venerable one was accused timely, it is suitable for your remorse. The venerable one was accused truthfully, it is suitable for your remorse. The venerable one was accused gently, it is suitable for your remorse.

The venerable one was accused with an essence, it is suitable for your remorse. The venerable one was accused with loving kindness, it is suitable for your remorse. Friends, to the bhikkhu accused according to the Teaching remorse should be furnished in these five ways.

Friends, to the bhikkhu accusing according to the Teaching non-remorse should be furnished in five ways. The venerable one accused timely, it is suitable for your non-remorse. The venerable one accused truthfully, it is suitable for your non-remorse. The venerable one accused gently, it is suitable for your non-remorse. The venerable one accused in the essence, it is suitable for your non-remorse. The venerable one accused with loving kindnss, it is suitable for your non-remorse. Friends, to the bhikkhu accusing according to the Teaching non-remorse should be furnished in these five ways.

Friends, to the bhikkhu accusing according to the Teaching non-remorse should be furnished in these five ways. What is the reason? He should think to accuse other bhikkhus too, truthfully.

Friends, the accused person should be established in two things. In truth and non-aversion. Even if I accuse others at the appropriate time or inappropriate time, truthfully or untruthfully, gently or roughly, for his welfare or not for his welfare, with loving kindness or with anger. I too should be established in two things in truth and non-aversion. If I know these things are present in me and if I tell them I have those qualities and if they know those things are present in me. Or if I know those things are not present in me and I tell them, these things are not evident in me.

Sàriputta, even when you say thus, why does not a certain foolish man take advice?

Venerable sir, a certain person leaves home and becomes homeless for the sake of a living without faith, crafty, deceitful, cheating, puffed up, takative, with loose talk, with unprotected mental faculties, not knowing the right amount to partake, not engaged in wakefulness, without desires of recluseship, not honouring the precepts, given to abundance and lethargic, having given up seclusions and the main aim, is lazy and without effort, not mindful and aware, not concentrated with scattered mind, stupid with saliva dripping. Such people even when advised do not take advice quickly.

Venerable sir, as for those sons of clansmen who leave home and become homeless with faith, not crafty, not deceitful, not cheating, not puffed up, not takative, without loose talk, with protected mental faculties, knowing the right amount to partake, engaged in wakefulness, with desires of recluseship, honouring the precepts, not given to abundance and not lethargic, not giving up seclusions and the main aim, are with aroused effort, mindful and aware, concentrated with the mind in a single point, wise without saliva dripping. Such people when advised, take my advice quickly.

Sàriputta, those persons who leave home and become homeless for the sake of a living without faith, crafty, deceitful, cheating, puffed up, takative, with loose talk, with unprotected mental faculties, not knowing the right amount to partake, not engaged in wakefulness, without desires of recluseship, not honouring the precepts, given to abundance and lethargic, having given up seclusions and the main aim, are lazy and without effort, not mindful and aware, not concentrated with scattered mind, stupid with saliva dripping. Let them alone!

Sàriputta, as for those sons of clansmen who leave home and become homeless with faith, not crafty, not deceitful, not cheating, not puffed up, not takative, without loose talk, with protected mental faculties, knowing the right amount to partake, engaged in wakefulness, with desires of recluseship, honouring the precepts, not given to abundance and not lethargic, not giving up seclusions and the main aim, are with aroused effort, mindful and aware, concentrated with the mind in a single point, wise without saliva dripping. Sàriputta, they tell you: Sàriputta, advise the co-associates in the holy life, pull them out of the wrong teaching and establish them in the right Teaching. Sàriputta, you should train thus.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is it good/bad to disagree?

Postby DAWN » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:12 am

Ultime knowledge is non-knowledge.

When the canvas is black, full of knowledge, we cant see the picture on it
When the canvas is white, without any knowledge, we can see the picture on it

All that i know is that i dont know (c) Socrates
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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