Is there something like a Vinaya network?

[Hanzze]

Thinking on the advices and the protection of the patimokkha issues from the Buddha, I often asked my self if there is any such network where Bhikkhus can exchange issues and questions in regard of Vinaya. Maybe even a palce where Novices can request.

Traditional it would be the preceptor or the fellow monks but I guess there are many situations where a Bhikkhu or a Novice would not have good success to good advices.

To talk such things public might look as "where is the problem", but actually many things are very sensible and can cause much troubles as well. I guess such a network could give much ideas and inspirations.

Are there such "systems"?
Would it be possible to make them somehow open to people who are not ordinated now, but serious interested?

[daverupa]

So, is it possible to use this forum as such a system for Vinaya discussions? There are a number of monastic members, and a slew of others who are also educated about the material.

[Hanzze]

Daverupa,

No, I don't think that it is the best situation. To a certain point yes, but a little deeper no. Also a mix of layman and Bhikkhus is not the best, even if there is great good intention on both parths as the views are very different as well as the rules to stay secure.

Maybe if there is a modified or special under-forum, which is in somehow not public and also high discret.

[daverupa]

a mix of layman and Bhikkhus is not the best

Well, this is how the Vinaya was created in the first place, so at a foundational level a mix of the laity and the monastic Sanghas is required, even desirable...

[DAWN]

If my memory is good, once someone told me that Bhikkhus cant talk about Vinaya with lay peoples.
I dont know if its true.

[daverupa]

If my memory is good, once someone told me that Bhikkhus cant talk about Vinaya with lay peoples.
I dont know if its true.

Monastics aren't allowed to teach the laity to recite the Dhamma line by line, as was done within recitation traditions, but there are no forbidden topics.

This is an interesting example of Vinaya information compiled for the laity.

[Cittasanto]

If my memory is good, once someone told me that Bhikkhus cant talk about Vinaya with lay peoples.
I dont know if its true.

it is an offence to tell lay-people (i.e. anyone outside the monastic sangha of bhikkhus presumably even from a different samvasa) of monastics faults.

[Hanzze]

If my memory is good, once someone told me that Bhikkhus cant talk about Vinaya with lay peoples.
I dont know if its true.

it is an offence to tell lay-people (i.e. anyone outside the monastic sangha of bhikkhus presumably even from a different samvasa) of monastics faults.

Not always, but generally yes.

But here we are. It has a lot of potential for yackety-yak as well as there are also kinds of hunters outside (of course no poison to fear when there is no wound on the hand).

a mix of layman and Bhikkhus is not the best

Well, this is how the Vinaya was created in the first place, so at a foundational level a mix of the laity and the monastic Sanghas is required, even desirable...

I guess you mean the critic, yes, of course very needed and of course even the reason why the most rules exist. But there is no such as a mix. Even such things like: "I told my monks that they should not..." response to laypeople seems to be not only strange but not useful for the reputation of the Sangha.

If my memory is good, once someone told me that Bhikkhus cant talk about Vinaya with lay peoples.
I dont know if its true.

Monastics aren't allowed to teach the laity to recite the Dhamma line by line, as was done within recitation traditions, but there are no forbidden topics.

Well yes, that is a very "modern" interpretation, if we view it form the direction of strangen the rules rather then to bed them to the general desirs it could be somehow totally different.
Its how ever not a secret, that Patimokkha issuse are good protected according to the Patimokkha.

Another point of course is the big amount public informations, which requires much additional public informations and education. But a direct line Bhikkhu - Layman is not so good. Its very good to have good scholar and layman discussions amoung it and Bhikkhus could/would learn from it as well.
How every, I guess its a fact that many layman are more informed about the rules as 90% of the Monks (especial in SEAsia) and here would be the line of such a things like a Vinaya network to give the best possible improvement.

A forum where layman hardly discuss and even criticice this or that behavior public is a very needed response to keep the actuallity of the Monks rules alive.

A discussion between Bhikkus and layman is somehow a field of even if well meant, especially if it is public. It could be just reduced to recite texts, but that is like told before maybe not very conform to the possibilities of a Bhikkhu.

Not to forget, that most are not free (layman as well as Bhikkhus) of mana. Even if there is just panna-mana left, it is a perfect source for mistakes and quarrels (not to talk about remorse).

I guess for a "borderline being" (somebody who seriously works his way out in the direction Vinaya) or even ordinated Samanas or Bhikkus how do not have the best addvicers or like to give it a prove, it could be difficult sometimes.

[Cittasanto]

If my memory is good, once someone told me that Bhikkhus cant talk about Vinaya with lay peoples.
I dont know if its true.

it is an offence to tell lay-people (i.e. anyone outside the monastic sangha of bhikkhus presumably even from a different samvasa) of monastics faults.

Not always, but generally yes.

But here we are. It has a lot of potential for yackety-yak as well as there are also kinds of hunters outside (of course no poison to fear when there is no wound on the hand).

firstly, was that a vinaya lesson or pointing out what something is?
and look at your motivation for saying that and to learn the value of letters!

[Hanzze]

Looks like you got hold of the wrong end of the stick, caused by my to quick step forward (without telling it)

But here we are. It has a lot of potential for yackety-yak as well as there are also kinds of hunters outside (of course no poison to fear when there is no wound on the hand).

Was not meant in regard of your "it is an offence to tell lay-people (i.e. anyone outside the monastic sangha of bhikkhus presumably even from a different samvasa) of monastics faults." but in reagard of the reason mentioned in the OP. One space line was maybe to less to sign the change of topic away from your quote. Or?

But thanks for the sample. Actually that was exactly what was mean by it and followed by "look at your motivation for saying that and to learn the value of letters!"

You give always great samples, thank you. That was exactly what was meant by the OP.


Another try:

it is an offence to tell lay-people (i.e. anyone outside the monastic sangha of bhikkhus presumably even from a different samvasa) of monastics faults.

Not always, sometimes it would be even declared and published, as far as I know. But no need for it, just when it is useful for the reputation of the order (maybe also even safty for others). How ever it would be a fault if it is not the case that it shouldbe published, as far as I know and understand its underlying logic.

[DAWN]

Thanks you devarupa and Cittasanto

[Hanzze]

Some rules (for sure not all, as it is mostly endless if one is a problem) to understand the OP-questions and the problems/dangers and its complexity:

pācittiya 71

Not to look for pretexts to disregard the rules of the pātimokkha. If a bhikkhu who is heard by the bhikkhus who live with him making suggestions about shortcomings concerning a rule of conduct, replies that he will not apply that rule until being informed by a bhikkhu expert on the vinaya, he commits a pācittiya.

Every bhikkhu must see to it that he acquires proper knowledge of the pātimokkha rules in order to train himself correctly. It is only the effort of such a training that determines the quality of a bhikkhu.

In contrast to the pācittiya 54, discussed above, the pācittiya 71 is committed when a bhikkhu gives an excuse to avoid following a rule. When using these excuses, the bhikkhu commits a pācittiya with every sentence pronounced to justify his exemption from obeying a rule.

pācittiya 72

Not to denigrate the rules of the pātimokkha. When the bhikkhus review, analyse or discuss aspects of the vinaya, a bhikkhu must not say that the minor rules are of little interest, or that they are taken to extremes, or that he never worries about knowing whether such action is correct or not, nor that it is painful to have to memorise it all, or that he is plagued having to learn them. If a bhikkhu denigrates the vinaya by any statements whatsoever, showing a hostile state of mind, he commits a pācittiya.

By denigrating aspects of the vinaya, a bhikkhu commits a pācittiya. By denigrating aspects of the suttanta or of the abhidhamma, he commits a dukkaṭa.

pācittiya 73

Not to pretend not knowing a rule of conduct. During the uposatha, if a bhikkhu pretends to discover a pātimokkha rule, affirming that he had not known it until that moment, when he has already participated at least twice in the pātimokkha recitation, he must be reprimanded. After having expiated his fault, this bhikkhu must be reprimanded in front of the saṃgha, who will formally establish his grasping of this rule by means of the ñatti kammavācā. After this, if the bhikkhu again pretends not to know this rule, he commits the pācittiya 73.

Whether he knows a rule or not, a bhikkhu is never exonerated from the offences he commits. Whatever the offence, whether it is committed willingly or not, it must always be purified in accordance with the vinaya. By ignoring the rules of the pātimokkha, a bhikkhu could easily be lead to commit a very large number of offences.

When it is recited, the pātimokkha must be listened to in a proper manner and with full concentration, for it to be beneficial. Only a bad bhikkhu does not pay attention to this recitation.

Remarks: Nowadays, only rare bhikkhus can understand the recitation of the pātimokkha because it is given only in Pali. For this reason, each bhikkhu must study it in a language that he understands in order to know the rules he is obliged to obey.

pācittiya 54

Not to lack respect. By lacking respect to a bhikkhu or to the dhamma, a bhikkhu commits a pācittiya.

If a bhikkhu admonishes another bhikkhu for not respecting the vinaya, for actions that are not correct, but the other bhikkhu keeps committing his incorrect actions without paying attention to those remarks, this is a lack of respect towards a bhikkhu.

If a bhikkhu tells another bhikkhu to observe a rule of the vinaya, and the other disappears or hides to keep on breaching this rule, this is a lack of respect towards the dhamma.

If a bhikkhu persists in behaving incorrectly disregarding the admonitions made by those bhikkhus, which back up with the vinaya, he commits a pācittiya. If a bhikkhu persists in behaving incorrectly, disregarding the admonitions made by those bhikkhus, which back up with the suttanta or the abhidhamma, he commits a dukkaṭa. If a bhikkhu persists in behaving incorrectly, disregarding the admonitions made by those sāmaṇera or lay persons, which back up with the vinaya, the suttanta or the abhidhamma, he commits a dukkaṭa.

pācittiya 77

Not to arouse remorse, doubts or anguish in another bhikkhu's mind. If, with spitefulness or out of mischief, a bhikkhu unjustifiably tries to arouse doubts, remorse, fear or anguish in another bhikkhu's, in such a way as to effectively provoke torment in the latter, even for a single instant, he commits a pācittiya.

Naturally, if a bhikkhu arouses remorse, doubt or anguish in another bhikkhu's mind by notifying him of a real fact, without any mischievousness in his intention, he does not commit a fault.

A bhikkhu commits a pācittiya with every phrase pronounced with the aim of unjustifiably inducing doubts, remorse or anguish in another bhikkhu. By doing the same thing to a sāmaṇera or a lay person, a bhikkhu commits a dukkaṭa.

pācittiya 78

Not to eavesdrop on a conflict between bhikkhus. If, by approaching or remaining in a certain place, a bhikkhu hides to eavesdrop on the words of bhikkhus, with whom he is in disagreement, speaking with each other – in a lowered voice or in private –, so as to listen for no other reason than to spy on what they say, he commits a pācittiya.

If, with a beneficial intention, a bhikkhu hides to spy on the words of other bhikkhus, telling himself: "I will try to resolve this dispute", he does not commit a fault.

Taken from: list of the 227 rules of pātimokkha

[Cittasanto]

Thanks you devarupa and Cittasanto

I didn't have time this morning to look which one it is but it is Pacittia 9

[Cittasanto]

Are there such "systems"?
Would it be possible to make them somehow open to people who are not ordinated now, but serious interested?

There is an online forum somewhere where bhikkhus can go which is not very active, and it is fairly open but not for lay people as a general rule, but they are not stopped from signing up. however it is generally a monastery that such discussions/lessons would happen in and lay people would not attend these vinaya lessons.

there is now the ethical conduct section which could be used for such discussion.

[Hanzze]

I see, so maybe it's the best to have just a good and broad discussion between laypeople and non-monasterian.

Yes there is the ethical conduct section, but it's maybe a little to intensive to bring to much Vinaya issues into it. The Ordination section is somehow a better place for "border beings"

Maybe there is even beside it a possibility to give Bhikkhus and houseless people a layman supported possibility for a good and most possible secure exchange. A kind of online Vihara.

[Cittasanto]

I see, so maybe it's the best to have just a good and broad discussion between laypeople and non-monasterian.

Yes there is the ethical conduct section, but it's maybe a little to intensive to bring to much Vinaya issues into it. The Ordination section is somehow a better place for "border beings"

Maybe there is even beside it a possibility to give Bhikkhus and houseless people a layman supported possibility for a good and most possible secure exchange. A kind of online Vihara.

it would depend upon the monastic if they chose to join in.
I dont think the ethical conduct section is to intensive, but I do think it is more open to a patimokkha/suttavibhangha discussion. maybe a mod or admin would be able to advise here.

[Hanzze]

I did not thought that much about regulations, but more about giving possibilities (inspire to give possibilities). Everybody is somehow free to chose, dependent on the conditions which needs to be worked out at least for one self.

[theY]

Hi, hanzze and all.

For layman, tipitakas, commentaries, Burma monasteries, or http://tipitakanews.org/en/forum/12 are variance choices (the last should read viewtopic.php?f=41&t=14318#p210289 then carefully join our service).

By above line, my opinion is:

Problem isn't question like "where is the network? "

But they are wh-questions about "Full System of Ancient Tipitaka Learning/Processing/Achieving."

And those questions can answer by these, Part of Buddha Plan:

Note : Main of below commentary quote follow to mahāvibhaṅga of vinaya pitaka, that commentary had dropped some elements by another point vinaya.

Off-topic: In Thailand, we, include Wat Thai Nānāchat and another Prapaa, don't care below commentary point for long time ago, however you can see this tradition at some monastery of Shwegyin Nikaya such as Pa-Auk Monastery, in Burma.

Ayaṃ pana bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti. Tattha nissayamuccanakena upasampadāya pañcavassena sabbantimena paricchedena dve mātikā paguṇā vācuggatā kātabbā pakkhadivasesu dhammasāvanatthāya suttantato cattāro bhāṇavārā, sampattānaṃ parikathanatthāya andhakavindamahārāhulovādaambaṭṭhasadiso eko kathāmaggo, saṅghabhattamaṅgalāmaṅgalesu anumodanatthāya tisso anumodanā, uposathapavāraṇādijānanatthaṃ kammākammavinicchayo , samaṇadhammakaraṇatthaṃ samādhivasena vā vipassanāvasena vā arahattapariyosānamekaṃ kammaṭṭhānaṃ, ettakaṃ uggahetabbaṃ. Ettāvatā hi ayaṃ bahussuto hoti cātuddiso, yattha katthaci attano issariyena vasituṃ labhati.

Parisupaṭṭhāpakena upasampadāya dasavassena sabbantimena paricchedena parisaṃ abhivinaye vinetuṃ dve vibhaṅgā paguṇā vācuggatā kātabbā, asakkontena tīhi janehi saddhiṃ parivattanakkhamā kātabbā, kammākammañca khandhakavattañca uggahetabbaṃ. Parisāya pana abhidhamme vinayanatthaṃ sace majjhimabhāṇako hoti mūlapaṇṇāsako uggahetabbo, dīghabhāṇakena mahāvaggo, saṃyuttabhāṇakena heṭṭhimā vā tayo vaggā mahāvaggo vā, aṅguttarabhāṇakena heṭṭhā vā upari vā upaḍḍhanikāyo uggahetabbo, asakkontena tikanipātato paṭṭhāya heṭṭhā uggahetumpi vaṭṭati. Mahāpaccariyaṃ pana ‘‘ekaṃ uggaṇhantena catukkanipātaṃ vā pañcakanipātaṃ vā gahetuṃ vaṭṭatī’’ti vuttaṃ. Jātakabhāṇakena sāṭṭhakathaṃ jātakaṃ uggahetabbaṃ, tato oraṃ na vaṭṭati. Dhammapadampi saha vatthunā uggahetuṃ vaṭṭatīti mahāpaccariyaṃ vuttaṃ. Tato tato samuccayaṃ katvā mūlapaṇṇāsakamattaṃ vaṭṭati, na vaṭṭatīti? ‘‘Na vaṭṭatī’’ti kurundaṭṭhakathāyaṃ paṭikkhittaṃ, itarāsu vicāraṇāyeva natthi. Abhidhamme kiñci uggahetabbanti na vuttaṃ. Yassa pana sāṭṭhakathampi vinayapiṭakaṃ abhidhammapiṭakañca paguṇaṃ, suttante ca vuttappakāro gantho natthi, parisaṃ upaṭṭhāpetuṃ na labhati. Yena pana suttantato vinayato ca vuttappamāṇo gantho uggahito, ayaṃ parisupaṭṭhāpako bahussuto hoti disāpāmokkho yenakāmaṅgamo, parisaṃ upaṭṭhāpetuṃ labhati.

Bhikkhunovādakena pana sāṭṭhakathāni tīṇi piṭakāni uggahetabbāni, asakkontena catūsu nikāyesu ekassa aṭṭhakathā paguṇā kātabbā, ekanikāyena hi sesanikāyesupi pañhaṃ kathetuṃ sakkhissati. Sattasu pakaraṇesu catuppakaraṇassa aṭṭhakathā paguṇā kātabbā, tattha laddhanayena hi sesapakaraṇesu pañhaṃ kathetuṃ sakkhissati. Vinayapiṭakaṃ pana nānatthaṃ nānākāraṇaṃ, tasmā taṃ saddhiṃ aṭṭhakathāya paguṇaṃ kātabbameva. Ettāvatā hi bhikkhunovādako bahussuto nāma hotīti.

http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/vin02a1.a ... ara145-147

For Meditation Plan:
http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0202 ... ml#para183
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0517m.mul0.xml >>> focus to Number 1 of mātikā
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0517m.mul0.xml#T1.0005 >>> focus to Number 1 of Niddesa



Notice: All begin with "fluently memorize, and learning by heart".