Suicide of Arahants

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Suicide of Arahants

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:32 am

Hello Dear Members,

I would like to talk about the suicide of Arahants. I know two suttas thats talking about it Ud 8.9 Ud 8.10, but if there is anothers suttas on this complicate subject?

The question that arise in me is : if an Arahant have no desire to life neither desire to die, what causes can lead him to this act against his body, that is not belong to him, and about wich he dont suffer no more ?
What reasons he have?

What do you think about?

With Metta.

Ud 8.9
Dabba Sutta: About Dabba Mallaputta (1)


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Now is the time for my total unbinding, O One-Well-Gone!"

"Then do, Dabba, what you think it is now time to do."

Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, rising from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One and, circling him on the right, rose up into the air and sat cross-legged in the sky, in space. Entering & emerging from the fire property, he was totally unbound. Now, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered & emerged from the fire property and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Just as when ghee or oil is burned and consumed, neither ashes nor soot can be discerned, in the same way, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered & emerged from the fire property and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned.

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
The body broke up,
perception ceased,
feelings went cold[1]
— all — fabrications were stilled,
consciousness has come to an end.

Ud 8.10
Dabba Sutta: About Dabba Mallaputta (2)


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said, "When Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered & emerged from the fire property and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Just as when ghee or oil is burned and consumed, neither ashes nor soot can be discerned, in the same way, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered & emerged from the fire property and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned."

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
Just as the destination of a glowing fire
struck with a [blacksmith's] iron hammer,
gradually growing calm,
isn't known:[1]
Even so, there's no destination to describe
for those rightly released
— having crossed over the flood
of sensuality's bond
— for those who've attained
unwavering bliss.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Suicide of Arahants

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:59 am

What do you think about?

A waste of time to think about it. But I guess you will find plenty of already existing topic about it with all kinds of speculations.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Suicide of Arahants

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:11 am

Oh yes, i see.

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=%2Bsuicide++%2Barahants++

But if some one have others suttas that discribing it, please send it.

With Metta
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Suicide of Arahants

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:38 am

Some points from the patimokkha-commentaries for layman:

Harmlessness

◊ Throughout its history Buddhism has been renowned for its tolerance and compassion towards all living beings and this is reflected in the Buddhist monks' Vinaya. Their rules cover situations of causing harm ranging from murder — which is universally accepted as a crime — to such things as destroying plant life.
Murder

The third Defeater (Paaraajika) Offence deals with murder. The original story describes how some bhikkhus wrongly grasped the Buddha's meditation teaching on the loathsome aspects of the body[38] and, falling into wrong view, committed suicide or asked someone to end their lives for them. The rule can be summarized like this:
"Intentionally bringing about the untimely death of a human being, even if it is still a foetus, is [an offence of Defeat.]" (Summary Paar. 3; BMC p.78)

◊ A bhikkhu must not recommend killing, suicide or help arrange a murder.[39] Also, because in this rule a human being is defined as beginning with the human foetus, counting "from the time consciousness first arises in the womb," he must not advise or arrange an abortion.


As it is not sure, that in the lineage of delivering suttas, there have not been some who didn't follow some advices, there are even some people who rightly claim those suttas could be also added by people who like to excuse such worngdoing amoung monks.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Suicide of Arahants

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:48 am

Dabba did not commit suicide — he just knew beforehand the time of the expiry of his life-span, and told the Buddha about it. By performing a self-cremation he gave no trouble to others. The death of Venerable Ānanda was similar.
The Pāḷi Canon makes no mention of Ānanda’s death. Fa Hsien (Giles trans. 44. The story also occurs in DhA.ii.99ff., with several variations in detail), however, relates what was probably an old tradition. When Ānanda was on his way from Magadha to Vesāli, there to die, Ajātasattu heard that he was coming, and, with his retinue, followed him up to the Rohiṇi River. The chiefs of Vesali also heard the news and went out to meet him, and both parties reached the river banks. Ānanda, not wishing to incur the displeasure of either party, entered into the state of tejokasiṇa in the middle of the river and his body went up in flames. His remains were divided into two portions, one for each party, and they built cetiyas for their enshrinement (See also Rockhill, op. cit., 165f).

There are one or two cases of suicide, but not by Arahants. Ghodhika Thera attained Arahantship after slitting his throat with a razor, not before.

As others have said, speculation on this is unlikely to be fruitful. If we ever get close to Arahantship, perhaps then would be the time to make our own funeral arrangements. Meanwhile, just rest in peace. :zzz:
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Re: Suicide of Arahants

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:56 am

Thanks you Hanzzee Thanks you Bhante, i see. :namaste:

I will try to close this topic.

Metta
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I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Suicide of Arahants

Postby whynotme » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:33 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Dabba did not commit suicide — he just knew beforehand the time of the expiry of his life-span, and told the Buddha about it. By performing a self-cremation he gave no trouble to others. The death of Venerable Ānanda was similar.
The Pāḷi Canon makes no mention of Ānanda’s death. Fa Hsien (Giles trans. 44. The story also occurs in DhA.ii.99ff., with several variations in detail), however, relates what was probably an old tradition. When Ānanda was on his way from Magadha to Vesāli, there to die, Ajātasattu heard that he was coming, and, with his retinue, followed him up to the Rohiṇi River. The chiefs of Vesali also heard the news and went out to meet him, and both parties reached the river banks. Ānanda, not wishing to incur the displeasure of either party, entered into the state of tejokasiṇa in the middle of the river and his body went up in flames. His remains were divided into two portions, one for each party, and they built cetiyas for their enshrinement (See also Rockhill, op. cit., 165f).

There are one or two cases of suicide, but not by Arahants. Ghodhika Thera attained Arahantship after slitting his throat with a razor, not before.

As others have said, speculation on this is unlikely to be fruitful. If we ever get close to Arahantship, perhaps then would be the time to make our own funeral arrangements. Meanwhile, just rest in peace. :zzz:

Thank you for clearing it, Bhante

I remember a case relate to Ven Sariputta, isn't that case an arahant?

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