Other conditions today???

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:13 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Hanzze wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:this thread is specific (as already noted earlier).

Maybe I am not very smart or do not understand. Can you express the specific one more time. No need to take reference of what was said or quoted before. So what is the specific use of this topic (according to your perceptions in this regard).

Thanks for your patient.

I find this very disingenuous - even if it is true - because of your behaviour in general here. As it has been explained several times to you directly, I am not willing to bother trying to explain it to you again.

Also not if I would beg you?

Cittasanto wrote:please learn to read, nowhere there do I ask for a yes or no answer.

Of cause nowhere there you do ask for a yes or no answer, I also did not say that you somewhere asked for a no or yes answer (write that) but it is a possible conclusion, as most answers seem to cause some kind of aversion or are far aside of what you like to point on.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:26 am

Hanzze wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:please learn to read, nowhere there do I ask for a yes or no answer.

Of cause nowhere there you do ask for a yes or no answer, I also did not say that you somewhere asked for a no or yes answer (write that) but it is a possible conclusion, as most answers seem to cause some kind of aversion or are far aside of what you like to point on.

as your question was "Do you like to have a simply "NO" on your topic question?" it is asking that very question.

back to topic or restrain yourself from responding here!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:28 am

:quote: what is the topic of your topic from your view? Or are the conditions (that you can accept things as on topic) still the same? Conditions do not change that fast, but they are changeable and change in any way. Lets look, maybe they are different tomorrow.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:34 am

Hanzze wrote::quote: what is the topic of your topic from your view? Or are the conditions (that you can accept things as on topic) still the same? Conditions do not change that fast, but they are changeable and change in any way. Lets look, maybe they are different tomorrow.

please refrain from posting any further!

[edit= this request is due to repeated requests to stay on topic initially in this thread, and refusal to answer questions apart from the same one which quickly became circular.
Explanations have previously been given and ignored so now less than willing to humour such behaviour further here. This was after all what led to me requesting the thread be closed.]
Last edited by Cittasanto on Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby daverupa » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:32 pm

Question 1 - what are these other conditions?

One example might be the chronological and cultural distance we have from the texts, which earlier populations experienced differently, or even not at all when one goes back far enough.

Question 2 - why & how are they different to causes in the time of the Buddha?

The words used, the implicit understandings which were part and parcel of that milieu, the off-hand remarks and idiomatic expressions referring to a connotative realm wholly foreign to us today, all of this contributes to the distance mentioned in Q1.

Question 3 - how & why are the teachings disproved, irrelevant, not appropriate due to these new conditions?

The teachings, overall, require a careful approach in order to make salient the presuppositions and assumptions one brings to them, but this has probably always been true. I think the field is simply different, rather than better or worse, so the teachings are not necessarily disproved, irrelevant, or inappropriate due to this, but changes in emphasis can certainly be seen (in the West, meditation over merit-making, for example).

Question 4 - how is this outside world more materialistic/worse for practice/what ever else you believe it to be, and how does that change things in regard to the teachings & practice?

I think access to the internet and television and personal music players are all worth mentioning; the barrage of entertainment is certainly greater. The world is now largely one of readers, not oral traditions, which changes pedagogical approaches to the Dhamma. Most people have a fundamental outlook which is based on modern science, which gives them an altogether different world view about how things work. Other examples can be mentioned, but they are in alignment with being mere differences, per Q3.

Question 5 - how are we different (in relation to the Buddhas teachings & practice) to people back when the teachings took place? and why does this matter?

World-view as above, the linguistic differences which change how experience and conversation is naturally framed, and lack of familiarity with the colloquialisms of the day are all differences which increase the need for careful scrutiny of the texts.

Question 6#

It isn't necessarily easier or harder to get at the Dhamma, just different.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:48 pm

Hi Dave,
apart from certain differences I think we agree there are no substantial differences which drastically changes the ability to train in the Buddhas path today and get full results, more than (what I will call) aesthetic differences, which can cause at any point in time problems in understanding aspects of the training.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Alex123 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:37 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Dave,
apart from certain differences I think we agree there are no substantial differences which drastically changes the ability to train in the Buddhas path today and get full results, more than (what I will call) aesthetic differences, which can cause at any point in time problems in understanding aspects of the training.



Those conditions that Dave has outlined are very important. Suttas were aimed at an audience that had a certain cultural things that we do not have today. They may have been able to understand what the Buddha has said much better than us, who do not know pali and do not know idiomatic expressions, and manner of speech.

Furthermore, there may have been a very deep non-verbal communication. I am sure that seeing and hearing the Buddha may have been 99% of sutta's effectiveness. Certain things you can't put in writing.

People where much tougher during those times than today. They didn't have all the luxuries that we have today. They also didn't have as many available entertainments (distractions) as we have today.


These are very important differences in conditions.
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:57 pm

Alex123 wrote:Those conditions that Dave has outlined are very important. Suttas were aimed at an audience that had a certain cultural things that we do not have today. They may have been able to understand what the Buddha has said much better than us, who do not know pali and do not know idiomatic expressions, and manner of speech.

Certainly, but language barrier is nothing new, and from a textual basis is there from the start, it may not be the same degree of barrier but it is still a barrier. and this barrier can be bridged still.

Furthermore, there may have been a very deep non-verbal communication. I am sure that seeing and hearing the Buddha may have been 99% of sutta's effectiveness. Certain things you can't put in writing.

what is said is only a small part of any communication, however in all likelihood those hearing the words (particularly monastics) would of used them as meditative instruction to follow as they were being given. and as memorising the discourses is found in the canon, it is probably to use as instruction also.

People where much tougher during those times than today. They didn't have all the luxuries that we have today. They also didn't have as many available entertainments (distractions) as we have today.

being used to a particular comfort level does not show toughness. people don't die with any less amount of injury than then, as far as I know.
they certainly had distractions, and concerns to deal with. they may not of had all the exact same concerns, or work but a personal life didn't start recently and they would of distracted themselves in various ways.

one reason why dana is prevalent in Asia maybe as a distraction, doing something in the hope that it will bring ease and this before modern luxury and entertainment. it is quite likely meditating lay-people were quite common among the disciples when you consider the references to anatapindika... and the disciple who had followers and only got ordained and stove for enlightenment due to his followers copying and ending up being on a par with him (AN I think??)

I have spend quite a while in a situation I am glad I am not in now, sleeping on nothing but a carpeted floor and a gym mat each for a few months, under nothing but a tree, under a bridge and in a cave for a couple of nights. none of that means I am tougher than another because of it. what I am willing to accept as a comfort level it lower than some peoples.

These are very important differences in conditions.
[/quote]
not really. like I said initially "I personally see no difference on the practical level and the level of the teaching, sure externally we have different means of distracting, pleasuring, & harming ourselves and others, but on the level of practice it is the same from my perspective." nothing has changed or given rise to a re-evaluation of this.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:24 am

It is not wise to think that conditions are always the same, one could miss a importand chance, resting on "the conditions are always the same" (which is simply nonsens). When this is, is that and from the arising of this comes the arising of that.

So when ever you have the possibility use them, they might fade away. And when ever you don't have the possibilities, work on better condition. There is no better tomorow when you do not invest in better condition yet, and yet.

It could be that one is a not so blessed person yet:

* A person who is certain of regaining health in due time even though he does not take any medicine or treatment.
* A person who is certain of failing to make a recovery, and dying from the illness, no matter to what extent he may take medicines or treatment.
* A person who will recover if he takes the right medicine and treatment, but who will fail to recover and die if he fails to take the right medicine and treatment.

So see that would be a possibility to change ones conditions.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:33 am

Hanzze wrote:It is not wise to think that conditions are always the same, one could miss a importand chance, resting on "the conditions are always the same" (which is simply nonsens). When this is, is that and from the arising of this comes the arising of that.

So when ever you have the possibility use them, they might fade away. And when ever you don't have the possibilities, work on better condition. There is no better tomorow when you do not invest in better condition yet, and yet.

It could be that one is a not so blessed person yet:

* A person who is certain of regaining health in due time even though he does not take any medicine or treatment.
* A person who is certain of failing to make a recovery, and dying from the illness, no matter to what extent he may take medicines or treatment.
* A person who will recover if he takes the right medicine and treatment, but who will fail to recover and die if he fails to take the right medicine and treatment.

So see that would be a possibility to change ones conditions.

have a look at retro & my first responses (other than the OP)
although your points (*) are no different/trueer today than at any other time.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:56 am

Oh, this are not my point, but maybe that is the reason why they are not "different/trueer today than at any other time" but to get this ones conditions need to be right prepared and that might be sometimes the reason for impossibility to gain further understanding.

But off-topic, how are you today? How are you conditions today? You sound a little more relaxed.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:23 pm

Hanzze wrote:Oh, this are not my point, but maybe that is the reason why they are not "different/trueer today than at any other time" but to get this ones conditions need to be right prepared and that might be sometimes the reason for impossibility to gain further understanding.

But off-topic, how are you today? How are you conditions today? You sound a little more relaxed.

points can also mean bullet points.

although what you say sounds like putting forth effort and that still falls under the above.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:14 am

Cittasanto wrote:points can also mean bullet points.

Yes, did you mean something different?

Three Types of Individuals
In the same Pitakas referred to above, the Buddha gave another classification of beings, dividing them into three classes according as they resembled three kinds of sick persons. The three kinds of sick persons are:
*....
*....
*....

You can look -> here.

although what you say sounds like putting forth effort

Unshakeable, yes. So how are you conditions today? Let us work on better, and we can do it even together without the need that somebody looks for the other.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:39 am

I meant bullet points hence the (*) next to points above.
please learn the difference between circumstances and conditions and look at the post by myself under your linked post.

So how are you conditions today?

none of your business.

:focus:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:42 am

I am not so smart and/or maybe unconcentrated, so let me try again:

Three Types of Individuals
In the same Pitakas referred to above, the Buddha gave another classification of beings, dividing them into three classes according as they resembled three kinds of sick persons. The three kinds of sick persons are:

* A person who is certain of regaining health in due time even though he does not take any medicine or treatment.

* A person who is certain of failing to make a recovery, and dying from the illness, no matter to what extent he may take medicines or treatment.

* A person who will recover if he takes the right medicine and treatment, but who will fail to recover and die if he fails to take the right medicine and treatment.

These are the three kinds of sick persons.

Persons who obtained niyata vyakarana (sure prediction made by a Buddha) from previous Buddhas, and who as such are certain of obtaining release from worldly ills in this life, resemble the first class of sick persons.


and let us read the flow (starting here) one more time. I am sure that betters our both condition, everybody for him self with much patience, non-harming, loving kindness and caring! (for others)

I don't believe in constant condition, so I will not give up. Every day, even every moment a new try for a better condition.
Last edited by Hanzze on Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:45 am

as already pointed out these are irrelivant to the thread, as they do not show in any way a difference between now and 2500 years ago.
you should start a new thread if you wish to discuss this.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:49 am

Do you think we would have had the possibility to care for each other via PC 2500 years ago? But you are right, even we would have care for each other 2500 years ago, it could be that our conditions would have been the same (shown in the (*)). Did you mean that? Damn, so how can we change our conditions today? So you think we have no way out?

How was the condition in your country 2500 years ago? How was your own 2500 years ago?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:55 am

Hanzze wrote:Do you think we would have had the possibility to care for each other via PC 2500 years ago? But you are right, even we would have care for each other 2500 years ago, it could be that our conditions would have been the same (shown in the (*)). Did you mean that? Damn, so how can we change our conditions today? So you think we have no way out?

How was the condition in your country 2500 years ago? How was your own 2500 years ago?

a computer does not effect the level of the teachings are pointing at.
instead of insinuating rubbish start a new thread open to the discussion you are wanting to have!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:59 am

Actually I think its a gratidute problem that is easy caused by thinking that the conditions are always the same and can waste a blessed situation, so I think its very worthy to go on here.

So why you like to reject that you/we/somebody else have other condition today as 2500 year ago?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:16 am

Hanzze wrote:Actually I think its a gratidute problem that is easy caused by thinking that the conditions are always the same and can waste a blessed situation, so I think its very worthy to go on here.

not in the slightest.
because it is not something different at any time.

So why you like to reject that you/we/somebody else have other condition today as 2500 year ago?

that is what this thread is about, and nothing has been shown to sugest that on the level of the teachings and practice is actually different which isn't accounted for at any time.
so off topic is the continued insistance without evidence. please stop posting circular arguments insisting the same thing which started on page one.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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