Ideas for a strong oath

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DAWN
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by DAWN »

purple planet wrote:
I'dont realy understand this part :embarassed:
the truth is that i actually wanted a descusion a bit thats why i didnt put a short question
descusion=discussion /chat i misspelled that

it was an apology that i allways said :offtopic: and i said i used it cause i was nervous to hear good ideas on how to take an oath so i can take it as soon as possible

the last part is a joke -that i only said :offtopic: just cause i wanted to use a smiley

for moderators : could you please delete this thread
Oh yes. I see :namaste:

No i dont think that is an off topic
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Hanzze
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by Hanzze »

purple planet wrote:I am trying to take an oath that i will not hear music , not read newspapers ect ect .... and to do everything as much as possible to be as mindful as i can -

i did it once and it turned out good - but i stopped i really believe i need to take it to the extreme (without becoming a monk or going on a retreat) - and by extreme i mean no music or stuff for fun -

I want to do a ceremony so the oath will get stuck in my head - i dont want to take the percpects cause i still kill mosquitoes and i eat all day (i want to eat without the "fun" "greed" factor by eating only mindfuly and only healthy food)

- In short : what i would like to hear are intersting idea on how to take an oath - ways to make it memorable - i would take a "blood oath" - cut my hand to make it bleed a bit but i would defintly would like to heat some other good ideas :lol: like maybe to eat something ect any idea no matter how stupid is welcomed .....
Great undertaking, purple planet, to go into direction of attha-sila and especial not hear music , not read newspapers ect ect is very useful to make some success in bhavana practice.

I guess to simply keep it in mind is the best way. But (just an idea) a bodily sighn would be maybe helpful. It's maybe for some to radical to shave the hair even it is very usual in traditional countries for people strating to observe eight precepts.
Cut of a little or change the hair would be maybe a ritual which reminds if it is even done all two weeks for example. Changing the way of dressing one self is another traditional support for the undertaking. Some wear a cloth bound over the left sholder for example or even change to white clothes. So you also have the "preassure" that you act like you look.

Great to hear about your undertaking and that you start to follow the ways of the wise and Arahants.

Much mudita
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
plwk
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by plwk »

Sigh... there was once a wise man who said let your yes be yes and your no be no...
And a cool Canadian woman who sang Why you have to go and make things so complicated?

Any wonder the Blessed One in the Dhammapada admonishes us...
Those who mistake the unessential to be essential and the essential to be unessential, dwelling in wrong thoughts, never arrive at the essential.
Those who know the essential to be essential and the unessential to be unessential, dwelling in right thoughts, do arrive at the essential.
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DAWN
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by DAWN »

plwk wrote:Sigh... there was once a wise man who said let your yes be yes and your no be no...
And a cool Canadian woman who sang Why you have to go and make things so complicated?

Any wonder the Blessed One in the Dhammapada admonishes us...
Those who mistake the unessential to be essential and the essential to be unessential, dwelling in wrong thoughts, never arrive at the essential.
Those who know the essential to be essential and the unessential to be unessential, dwelling in right thoughts, do arrive at the essential.
What is essential ?
What is unessential ?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Hanzze
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by Hanzze »

Nibbana and a "pleasant life"
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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manas
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by manas »

purple planet wrote:I am trying to take an oath that i will not hear music , not read newspapers ect ect .... and to do everything as much as possible to be as mindful as i can -

i did it once and it turned out good - but i stopped i really believe i need to take it to the extreme (without becoming a monk or going on a retreat) - and by extreme i mean no music or stuff for fun -

I want to do a ceremony so the oath will get stuck in my head - i dont want to take the percpects cause i still kill mosquitoes and i eat all day (i want to eat without the "fun" "greed" factor by eating only mindfuly and only healthy food)

- In short : what i would like to hear are intersting idea on how to take an oath - ways to make it memorable - i would take a "blood oath" - cut my hand to make it bleed a bit but i would defintly would like to heat some other good ideas :lol: like maybe to eat something ect any idea no matter how stupid is welcomed .....
Hi purpleplanet,

I strongly advise against this idea.

There are lots of reasons and I'm sure many have already been covered above (don't have time to read it all now) but one really good one, is that it's kammically very unwholesome to break a strong vow, imho. Basically, I do not make such 'vows' anymore, because there is always the risk that one's resolve or even belief in why it is necessary to stick it out, will waver at some time in the future, and one might then break the vow. And, imho, it's better not to make a vow in the first place, than to make (even a noble) one, but then to break it.

Jus a little bit of advice gleaned from my own previous mistakes

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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DAWN
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by DAWN »

:goodpost:

Dear Purple Planet,
Dont say anything, just put this cake in the trash,if you want to be free of it, do not be conditioned by it
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Hanzze
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by Hanzze »

manas wrote:it's kammically very unwholesome to break a strong vow, imho.
No, not at all. Its very naturally that we break a precept. But maybe the problem comes form the misunderstanding of precepts and take them as a vow (promise). We are raised to make promises, we life for promises and we think that we need to keep promises and often put them much higher as simply precepts.

To keep a precept means to let go of promises. A promise is sooner or later a burden, because in the time we gave a promise we did not know nature and its laws. Nothing is for sure, so to make a promise is very unsecure and leads to troubles.

The better and mindfuller one observes silas, the more he/she will understand the problem with promises. So it's good to give up all promises before train the precepts in a good way that they are also improved all the time.

When ever you violate a precept, just renew it and try to do not the same mistake again, which needs the improvement of ones way of live, of course.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Ben
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by Ben »

Dear Purple Planet,
In my simple way of seeing things - I think it best to practice the five precepts well rather than the eight poorly.
Making a decision with strong determination is good but you don't need to be melodramatic with ceremonies and cutting yourself.
Remember the Buddha rejected extreme asceticism.
Also remember, while sila is foundational and crucial, it is only part of the path. You need to also develop samadhi and panna. They are the three legs of the tripod.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Hanzze
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

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Ben, I do not agree. The five precepts are mostly not really touchable in modern life (and if, often a situation that is far away form normal quick possibilities) and are soon nothing esle as hypocratical basements for the most (look Vegitarianism...). To abstain for mind defusing things like music, politic, dayly chit-chat goes long before the five precept in fact, as a live totaly involved in such stuff would not easy lead to the prerequiste of right view, through some insight out of bhavana.

When we look for example to the The Discourse to Sigala, we can see that to abstain from such things is not only good for a spiritual growing but also needed for a good worldly life.
We need to be honest that our general ways today are far away form touching even a normal virtuose life. So I would not regard it as a step which is to high, but the base of practice not to say the base of a better sociaty.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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manas
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by manas »

Ben wrote:Dear Purple Planet,
In my simple way of seeing things - I think it best to practice the five precepts well rather than the eight poorly.
Making a decision with strong determination is good but you don't need to be melodramatic with ceremonies and cutting yourself.
Remember the Buddha rejected extreme asceticism.
Also remember, while sila is foundational and crucial, it is only part of the path. You need to also develop samadhi and panna. They are the three legs of the tripod.
kind regards,

Ben
Well said, Ben. :goodpost:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Hanzze
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

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Friends, I hope that abstaining from music and entertainment does not mean "extreme asceticism" for you otherwise the whole stuff here looks somehow fare from reach. But yes: Much meditation might help...

Maybe you remember your grandmother and grandfathers, those hardly suffering extreme ascetics.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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manas
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by manas »

Hanzze wrote:
manas wrote:it's kammically very unwholesome to break a strong vow, imho.
No, not at all. Its very naturally that we break a precept. But maybe the problem comes form the misunderstanding of precepts and take them as a vow (promise). We are raised to make promises, we life for promises and we think that we need to keep promises and often put them much higher as simply precepts.

To keep a precept means to let go of promises. A promise is sooner or later a burden, because in the time we gave a promise we did not know nature and its laws. Nothing is for sure, so to make a promise is very unsecure and leads to troubles.

The better and mindfuller one observes silas, the more he/she will understand the problem with promises. So it's good to give up all promises before train the precepts in a good way that they are also improved all the time.

When ever you violate a precept, just renew it and try to do not the same mistake again, which needs the improvement of ones way of live, of course.
Hi Hanze,

maybe you misunderstood what I meant. I was not talking about the five precepts, or eight precepts. I do not see these as 'vows' actually, although I do think we should try our utmost to follow them. I see them as guidance for how we ought to live ethically.

No, I was referring to making a strong and specific, solemn vow, in front of one's altar even, to try to bludgeon as if with a sledgehammer, the particular bad habit, addiction or whatever, by saying "I solemnly swear that I will not....(etc) for (whatever specified length of time)!" This is something of a different order. It's like if you are in a court of law, they will ask you to solemnly swear to tell the truth, etc. It might just be my own opinion, I'm not sure, But I do see this as a bad thing, to break an oath of that nature. That's what I meant when I said, better not to make that kind of oath, unless you are sure you will be keeping it.

But more to the point - why is this necessary? Why can't the OP start by taking eight precepts on full moon days, or full - and - new moon days, or even weekly if he wishes, rather than the 'sledgehammer' approach of a strong vow, trying to force oneself to become 'pure' rather than letting purity develop naturally, as the result of patient, diligent practice over time?

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Hanzze
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by Hanzze »

Mana,

I guess we are somehow on the same level in regard of promises.

But in regard of traditional five or eight presepts, I guess our normal enviroment and livestile is not fit. They are also broadly abserved like Sunday Christians do it, in the countries where the eight precept day is a normal celerbrated day. Nice to be part of a community and give them also some feeling of doing something good. To observe one very good is much better from my view as to addopt traditional usuals.
Step by step but honestly is always good. For example, as long as I can remember, I just focused on that what is called abstaining from lying (everything else seems to be completely normal and out of the need or any special observation. Stealing, sexual misconduct, killing, drugs things which are logical and no base for worries normaly) and anything else came its way. But especially abstaining from endless eating with all our sense is very nessesary to get more intouch with the roots greed, hatred and illusion in our self. We might not see how greedy we are, we would be even so much distracted from the pleasure we gain out of it, that we would feel secure and use the Buddhas technics just as an additional pleasure pool.

If somebody is able to observe 8 precepts its something that is not usual and a bliss, who ever is able to do that will have great benefit from it. I guess it is good to give them some support to have the feeling that they are not alone.

Nobody ever had suffered in addition because he had started to observe precepts. It might be that it seems that things run more worse, but actually its not caused by virtue at all.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Ben
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Re: Ideas for a strong oath

Post by Ben »

Hanzze wrote:Friends, I hope that abstaining from music and entertainment does not mean "extreme asceticism" for you.
No Hanzze, it is the 'ceremony' and 'blood oath'.
As I said earlier - it is far more beneficial to practice the five precepts well rather than the eight precepts poorly. If PP wishes to engage in sense restraint as a natural result of practice - that is excellent. But if it is the manifestation of obsessive thinking then it might be better to create some balance in one's practice and in one's life.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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