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Dhamma Wheel • View topic - The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

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The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:38 am

Jeffrey posted on another topic a very interesting movie: http://schoolingtheworld.org/

I thought to take it as a starter to discuss the phenomena of collective karma in relation with the "Bodhisattva ideal" and general tendencies of Buddhist groups today. Also it's maybe useful to understand karma (which we normaly observe in our self because it's difficult to see it on a bigger screen) and as well the way out of such a circle like Buddha had taught.

Usually we tend to react and in this way we put additional fuel into the fire. How ever "compassionated" it might be motivated, if there is no wisdom behind this compassion, it runs somehow wrong.

I am aware that the Theravada Tradition does not put much interest into collective Karma, still such collective Karma is something that is also not denied able. In our very hard bounded and independent sociaty over the last centuries, collective delusions have more and more dramatical effects. Of cause, we can not change others but only our own habits. There is plenty enought work and so there is not much interest naturally in this tradition (I even would say form a Dhamma point of view). But still we are thinking in frames of our group, kin, nation, what ever and often very less in simply our own sphere (with its causes and effets).

The very strong "compassionated" intention of "modern" Buddhist sociaty might addopt something which is a little aside of what was recommended by the Buddha into the Dhamma "practice". Somehow a continuing of old archetype and habits.

Please do not understand it wrong as a simply burden of the white man, but more over a burden of the intelectual man. So it's not about any specific nation, or group of people distinct by skin color, birth, religion or what ever, but of a flow caused by actions who ever is part of such a flow.

So my critical question is, would something like teaching Dhamma as a reaction to and out the burden (caused by past actions) not eventually simply continue this flow?
How can we be secure to do mistakes not on and on, just in another way?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Ben » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:52 am

Greetings Hanzze,

I'm not sure what you mean by the 'white man's burden'.
Its understandable that some people believe in collective kamma when they witness events such as the Boxing Day Tsunami that wiped out hundreds of thousands of people from Sri Lanka, Thailand and Indonesia. However, what we know of the Dhamma is that kamma is generated by the individual and its result also experienced by the individual.
kind regards,

Ben
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tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:17 am

Dear Ben,

It (The white man's burden) is in relation to the website titel and the movie as well as to the tendency of missionary and educating others (which is in this/our times, of cause not always!, a outstanding sign of the white man and we do not face similar phenomenas from others yet)
Of couse it's also used to touch others as we mostly start to look, when we feel approach.

In regard of collectiv karma. Generally I agree with you, it's just so, that today we are able to see the function of karma even on a greater scale. Don't forget a person a being is at least also a compounding of many smaller parts. So when we face the illusion of a nation for example it is not much different to the illusion of a person at least.

Similar cetana will effect similar resuts, volution is kamma. Collective (equal) kamma produces equal effects, of couse not linear and mixed with uncountable other effect and reactions but would in some how always lead to similar appearences. Like for example birth under wise or unwise people. On a place of bliss or what ever.

From a Abhidhamma view, it's a little explained here: The_Same_Kamma_Effect, Akusala Kamma Partners, The Benefits of Good Deeds enjoyed Collectively, The Indirect Consequences of Akusala Kamma. As told before, its clear that it does not make much sense to speculate and hammer ones brain to look through it, but it might bring some general realications.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:52 am

Ego , Identification , Label is the cause of all suffering.

A Virus have two aim : eat and self multiply.

Actualy the problem is no te "white peoples kamma burden", but just "humanity kamma burden".
Distruction distruction distruction :toilet:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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I'am sorry for my english
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:05 am

Well we need to be careful to do not addopt a selfcreated replacement-guilt-feeling which "humanity kamma burden" would carry as well. Guilt feelings are often the drive for strange actions beside of focusing on ourselves/oneself. When ever there is a dislike of one self, such things arise with indentification. Affection and aversion a twins, dancing around the self.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:32 am

Hanzze wrote:Well we need to be careful to do not addopt a selfcreated replacement-guilt-feeling which "humanity kamma burden" would carry as well. Guilt feelings are often the drive for strange actions beside of focusing on ourselves/oneself. When ever there is a dislike of one self, such things arise with indentification. Affection and aversion a twins, dancing around the self.


It's true that it can be dangerous to feel some guilty on the fact that technicaly we are virus, that ve have an action of a virus, that our kamma (action/interaction) is virus kamma.
But can we blame the virus to be virus? No.

But we can refuse to be a virus, to be a Mara soldier, ignorance soldier, so we can take a medicament of Dhamma and by taking this medicament :
- stop to harm
- stop to kill
- stop to develop our greed tendency
- stop to multiply the virus (vow of celibacy)
etc etc stop all virus way of activiy. Kill the Mara.

Actualy, that concern my, if i come to Buddha for teachings it's because i refuse to be a Mara soldier, to be a virus.

PS if its "Prosetylizing", please delete it.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby ground » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:04 am

Hanzze wrote:...collective karma ... "Bodhisattva ideal" ... karma ...
So my critical question is, would something like teaching Dhamma as a reaction to and out the burden (caused by past actions) not eventually simply continue this flow?
How can we be secure to do mistakes not on and on, just in another way?

What a burden :sage:
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:06 am

To be ignorant of ignorance is of coures another danger, thank's for your reminding my friend.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby ground » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:11 am

Hanzze wrote:To be ignorant of ignorance is of coures another danger, thank's for your reminding my friend.

Who does not want to be ignorant? Who fears danger? :sage:
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:05 am

An ignorat person does not fear anything. But the wise fears unwholesome mindstates of which moha-cetana is one of, while the unwise would even no have an idea that it exists. He is content with his ideas and consturts.

Who does not want to be ignorant?

Good question. Ignorance is needed to give birth. One how does not fear birth, seeks refuge in ignorance.

Also in this way of thinking there is a kind of Bodhisattva ideal addoptable. So how comes that one who has no burden, would feel the need to express this? Or is it lesser out of compassion but build up on wisdom without compassion which is simply bored?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby ground » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:37 am

Hanzze wrote:An ignorat person does not fear anything. But the wise fears unwholesome mindstates of which moha-cetana is one of, while the unwise would even no have an idea that it exists. He is content with his ideas and consturts.

Either the Buddha was ignorant or wise. If he had no fear then he was ignorant and if he had fear he was wise. This is what the consciousness named Hanzze fabricates.

Hanzze wrote:
Who does not want to be ignorant?

Good question. Ignorance is needed to give birth. One how does not fear birth, seeks refuge in ignorance.

What is already born is ignorant if it fears birth. Why? Because it is already born.

Hanzze wrote:Also in this way of thinking there is a kind of Bodhisattva ideal addoptable. So how comes that one who has no burden, would feel the need to express this? Or is it lesser out of compassion but build up on wisdom without compassion which is simply bored?

What causes this burdon of questions?
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:43 am

ground wrote:
Hanzze wrote:An ignorat person does not fear anything. But the wise fears unwholesome mindstates of which moha-cetana is one of, while the unwise would even no have an idea that it exists. He is content with his ideas and consturts.

Either the Buddha was ignorant or wise. If he had no fear then he was ignorant and if he had fear he was wise. This is what the consciousness named Hanzze fabricates.

Not at all, but maybe the problem is that you like to show us what a Buddha is rather then to provide a way.

Hanzze wrote:
Who does not want to be ignorant?

Good question. Ignorance is needed to give birth. One how does not fear birth, seeks refuge in ignorance.

What is already born is ignorant if it fears birth. Why? Because it is already born.

Bad, do you simply like to wait till it dies? Could be that it is followed by another birth. I am just talking with the being ground, not the Buddha he try to imitate. No need to argue with the Buddha. I wonder if Mara would be able to imitate the Buddha. What would be his burden even to do so?

Hanzze wrote:
Also in this way of thinking there is a kind of Bodhisattva ideal addoptable. So how comes that one who has no burden, would feel the need to express this? Or is it lesser out of compassion but build up on wisdom without compassion which is simply bored?

What causes this burdon of questions?

Yes, that was my question. What causes this burden to say that there is no burden if there is actually really no burden.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby ground » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:42 am

Hanzze wrote:
ground wrote:Either the Buddha was ignorant or wise. If he had no fear then he was ignorant and if he had fear he was wise. This is what the consciousness named Hanzze fabricates.

Not at all, but maybe the problem is that you like to show us what a Buddha is rather then to provide a way.

No liking, nothing to show, no disliking.

Hanzze wrote:
What is already born is ignorant if it fears birth. Why? Because it is already born.

Bad, do you simply like to wait till it dies? Could be that it is followed by another birth.

The number of "could be"s is indefinite and it is without limit as long as conciousness is taking itself at face value.


Hanzze wrote:Yes, that was my question. What causes this burden to say that there is no burden if there is actually really no burden.

Echoes are just reflections. It is no burden for a mirror to reflect the light. :sage:
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:48 am

Hanzze wrote:
Yes, that was my question. What causes this burden to say that there is no burden if there is actually really no burden.

Echoes are just reflections. It is no burden for a mirror to reflect the light.

As long there is some sense of that, "ist Hopfen und Malz nicht verloren" it's not a lost cause. As long as there is a surface there is a refelction. So I wonder why this refelect mirror still refelcts/reacts (even unsupported as told...). A secretly and shy Bodhisattva :thinking: ? How does it feel if one has gain such insight and is not able to help?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby ground » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:53 am

Hanzze wrote:As long as there is a surface there is a refelction. So I wonder why this refelect mirror still refelcts/reacts (even unsupported as told...).

"I" may wonder, a mirror does not. :sage:

Hanzze wrote:How does it feel if one has gain such insight and is not able to help?

Nothing gained. Who wants to help and who is there to receive that help?
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:13 am

ground wrote:
Hanzze wrote:As long as there is a surface there is a refelction. So I wonder why this refelect mirror still refelcts/reacts (even unsupported as told...).

"I" may wonder, a mirror does not. :sage:

Still it reacts.

ground wrote:
Hanzze wrote:How does it feel if one has gain such insight and is not able to help?

Nothing gained. Who wants to help and who is there to receive that help?

Unsupported intentions, I know. Just reminders and so helpful. As long as such ideas do not grow to a collective, I guess others can live good with such a mirror.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby ground » Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:22 am

Hanzze wrote:
ground wrote:
Hanzze wrote:As long as there is a surface there is a refelction. So I wonder why this refelect mirror still refelcts/reacts (even unsupported as told...).

"I" may wonder, a mirror does not. :sage:

Still it reacts.

There being neither activity nor effort. No agent.

Hanzze wrote:
ground wrote:
Hanzze wrote:How does it feel if one has gain such insight and is not able to help?

Nothing gained. Who wants to help and who is there to receive that help?

Unsupported intentions, I know. Just reminders and so helpful. As long as such ideas do not grow to a collective, I guess others can live good with such a mirror.

Nobody knows anything. Ideas arise and cease. :sage:
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Re: The white man's burden, collective karma, Bodhisattva ideal

Postby DAWN » Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:39 am

To Hanzze,

Actualy, wisdom and compassion, have a same nature, it's the same state. Like mirrow who is compationate and wise.

To ground,


It's true that you say, that there is no annica, no dukkha, no-self. But, if we take exemple of my militant behavour, do i made the choice to be an militant? Do i suffer?
Like somebody who can contemplain his life, askig : "Friend whay do you try to help, to do somethink, to change something?". So the other reply : "There is conditions to that, so it have to be done, so i contemply it?"

Actualy, the comassionastest and wisest action of NO-ACTION, of corse, can be tradused by body, but for me this compassion/wisdom have more "internal" application. :meditate:
Anyway both is possible, we have just to Ordain. :candle: :buddha1: :candle:
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