A discussion of bodhi

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
cittaanurakkho
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by cittaanurakkho »

tiltbillings wrote: You have modified/explained this list in a way that is simply unconvincing, and you have shown absolutely no justification for your interpretations of each item.
Modified the list? In what way have I modified the list. I have neither change the order nor remove any item from the list in M ii 83.

Explained the list in a way that is unconvinving? Yes, I guess that may be true.
None of the many suttas that use this list support your modification of the list in this way. This is not a list of progression. I'll go with Occam Razor here. It is far more simply a list showing different aspects of of the same thing. You also ignore the fact the most of the items in this list, as stated, are used specifically to refer to the goal, as I have shown, as is plainly obvious with virāga: S.N. IV 371: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is destruction of craving [virāga]." Your discussion of cessation, I find equally unconvincing. Cessation is used repeatedly at the end of a number progressive paticcasamuppada type lists to indicate nibbana. You have made things far too complicated where it seems it is far more straightforward.
Excuse me tilt,
craving: (f.) taṇhā; nikanti; abhijjhā.
It is not virāga.
And why would the experience of sambodhi be any different from the experience of nibbana?
Because the experience of (Sam)bodhi is caused by maturing of the seven factor of wakening.
But Nibbana is technically not “an experience” of any sort.
I am thinking here that we are not going to agree on these matters.
We?
If you are implying that you no longer want to discuss the matter further with me, that is ok with me.

But I prefer to speak for myself that I am open to other interpretation. If you said, as you mentioned responding to dymtro, that the list “characterized” Nibbana. Yes, I can agree that the list can be a descriptive list (a non progressive list) in the sense that the surface tension, the polarity , … , the liquidity, “characterized” liquid water. In this sense the whole six items on the list “characterized” Nibbana.

But that is quite different from what you originally said: which is Nirodha, (Sam)bodhi (all six items on the list?) are “synonymous” with Nibbana. That is like saying liquidity is synonymous with liquid water. Which does not make sense because there are other matter that have the property of liquidity, not just liquid water.
cittaanurakkho
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by cittaanurakkho »

Hi daverupa,
daverupa wrote:In the oral recitations, often lists of synonyms will occur as a guard against losing the meaning; having a list of similar terms helps recall all of them, and there is often a principle of the waxing syllable, where the words are in an order from short to long.
Good to know. Do you have examples from Pali sutta?
In any event,
Because I don’t equate (Sam)bodhi with Nibbana, when I read the list above, instead of synonym I see a progression
is begging the question: "I don't equate" is the conclusion to be supported, but it is taken as proven and then used as evidence itself. This approach is backwards.
You are right if you lump the two parts discussion into one.

But there are 2 seperate parts in that post. The first part is the discussion about Nirodha and (Sam)bodhi as “synonymous” with Nibbana. And I believed I made my conclusion that I don’t interpret Nirodha or (Sam)bodhi as “synonymous” with Nibbana because Nirodha and (Sam)bodhi are conditioned while Nibbana is not.

Now, given that conclusion, the second part of the discussion deal with the list, particularly my interpretation of the list, but I also includes other interpretation that make sense to me. Granted that in the second part I did briefly mentioned the Nirodha/(Sam)bodhi issue but the bulk of the discussion is not meant to provide further evidence to the first part. And there is no conclusion on the second part.

I hope that clarify.
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tiltbillings
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

None of the many suttas that use this list support your modification of the list in this way. This is not a list of progression. I'll go with Occam Razor here. It is far more simply a list showing different aspects of of the same thing. You also ignore the fact the most of the items in this list, as stated, are used specifically to refer to the goal, as I have shown, as is plainly obvious with virāga: S.N. IV 371: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is destruction of craving [virāga]." Your discussion of cessation, I find equally unconvincing. Cessation is used repeatedly at the end of a number progressive paticcasamuppada type lists to indicate nibbana. You have made things far too complicated where it seems it is far more straightforward.
Excuse me tilt,
craving: (f.) taṇhā; nikanti; abhijjhā.
It is not virāga.
Did you check the Pali of S.N. IV 371?
And why would the experience of sambodhi be any different from the experience of nibbana?
Because the experience of (Sam)bodhi is caused by maturing of the seven factor of wakening.
But Nibbana is technically not “an experience” of any sort.
So, you can have sambodhi without having nibbana, and you have nibbana without having sambodhi, is that what you are saying?
But that is quite different from what you originally said: which is Nirodha, (Sam)bodhi (all six items on the list?) are “synonymous” with Nibbana. That is like saying liquidity is synonymous with liquid water. Which does not make sense because there are other matter that have the property of liquidity, not just liquid water.
Interesting question. A person attains sambodhi, did she attain nibbana?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

cittaanurakkho wrote:Nirodha and (Sam)bodhi are conditioned . . . .
Based upon what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by Assaji »

Hi Cittanurakkho,
cittaanurakkho wrote:Because I don’t equate (Sam)bodhi with Nibbana, when I read the list above, instead of synonym I see a progression, like stages of development culminating in Nibbana. In fact, one can fit Buddha chronology of his development into the list:
1. His complete disenchantment with the sorrow of daily, aging, death.
2. His dispassion of that life that drives him to become contemplative.
3. His cessation of lay life and beginning of contemplative life.
4. His peace obtain through samadhi.
5. The three knowledge obtain in the night of his enlightenment.
6. To his englightenment.
7. Nibbana
There's certainly a progression in this list, which includes the culminating stages of "seven selective recognitions", described, for example, in Chachakka sutta:
aniccasañña (recognition of impermanence), anattasañña (of impersonality), pahānasañña (of abandoning), nibbidasañña (of disgust/disenchantment), virāgasañña (of dispassion), vimutti (release), ñāṇa (knowledge),
and Mahaparinibbana sutta:
aniccasañña (of impermanence), anattasañña (of impersonality), asubhasañña (of non-attractiveness), ādīnavasañña (of drawbacks), pahānasañña (of abandoning), virāgasañña (of dispassion/disenchantment), nirodhasañña (of cessation).

By the way, these seven selective recognitions also feature, in shortened form, in the last tetrad of Anapanasati sutta. Patisambhidamagga chapter on Anapanasati has a helpful explanation of "seven selective recognitions", including "nirodha".
I don’t think any Buddha could have recommend Bodhisatva Path. While the Noble Eighfold Path was just being reveal, it would have been very odd to encourage anybody to go through eons of lifetime perfecting their paramis just to be like Buddha. That would be a cruelty and not compassion which is the quality of enlighten person. Ven. Sariputa was chastized by Buddha for teaching a brahmin to be reborn in Brahma world. So Buddha encouraging people to pursue Bodhisatva Path? No.
I agree with you.
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Assaji
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by Assaji »

<skip>
Last edited by Assaji on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Cittanurakkho,
cittaanurakkho wrote:
None of the many suttas that use this list support your modification of the list in this way. This is not a list of progression. I'll go with Occam Razor here. It is far more simply a list showing different aspects of of the same thing. You also ignore the fact the most of the items in this list, as stated, are used specifically to refer to the goal, as I have shown, as is plainly obvious with virāga: S.N. IV 371: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is destruction of craving [virāga]." Your discussion of cessation, I find equally unconvincing. Cessation is used repeatedly at the end of a number progressive paticcasamuppada type lists to indicate nibbana. You have made things far too complicated where it seems it is far more straightforward.
Excuse me tilt,
craving: (f.) taṇhā; nikanti; abhijjhā.
It is not virāga.
Yes, there's certainly an error.

S.N. IV. 371 reads:
Yo, bhikkhave, rāgakkhayo dosakkhayo mohakkhayo – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, parāyanaṃ.

"That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion - is what's called a Further Shore."
No. parāyanaṃi is in SN iv 373. virāga (dispassion) is in SN iv 371. See CDB 1378-9.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Cittanurakkho,
cittaanurakkho wrote:Because I don’t equate (Sam)bodhi with Nibbana, when I read the list above, instead of synonym I see a progression, like stages of development culminating in Nibbana. In fact, one can fit Buddha chronology of his development into the list:
1. His complete disenchantment with the sorrow of daily, aging, death.
2. His dispassion of that life that drives him to become contemplative.
3. His cessation of lay life and beginning of contemplative life.
4. His peace obtain through samadhi.
5. The three knowledge obtain in the night of his enlightenment.
6. To his englightenment.
7. Nibbana
There's certainly a progression in this list
Not that you have shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by daverupa »

cittaanurakkho wrote:Good to know. Do you have examples from Pali sutta?
Here's a good place to begin this investigation, possibly worth it's own thread:

Oral Dimensions of Pali Discourses

___

I guess I don't follow the argument that
If Noble Eightfold Paths is conditioned then the Four Noble Truths is also conditioned. As Nirodha is in Four Noble Truths, this will make Nirodha conditioned. However, Nibbana is unconditioned so I think this will rule out that Nirodha is equal to Nibbana.
because nirodha and nibbana, as I see it, are synonymous. dukkhanirodha is descriptive; nibbana is one among many metaphors for this, not a separate 'thing', as I understand it.

The Path is conditioned; the result is not. It is a conditioned path which 'puts out', nibbanizes, greed & hatred & delusion. These are at the root of dukkha, so dukkhanirodha is raga-dosa-moha-nirodha, which is nibbana. Just as "no-fire" isn't a thing, but a lack of a particular thing, so "nibbana" isn't a thing to be differentiated from other things, but a lack which can be described in many ways.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
vinasp
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

I think that there may be two ways to make sense of the teachings. Let us call them
interpretations A, and B.

I prefer interpretation A, in which the five clinging aggregates cease at awakening. But
I would also like to understand the other way of seeing things.

There are discourses which seem to say that the arahant still has the five clinging
aggregates. I have to ignore these because they are not compatible with interpretation A.
See, for example, SN 22.122

But if one bases one's interpretation on these statements, perhaps it leads to
interpretation B.

The first noble truth says that suffering is the five clinging aggregates. The fourth
truth says that the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of suffering (leads to
the cessation of the five clinging aggregates). But if an arahant still has the five
clinging aggregates, then they will only cease when he passes away.

This would seem to mean that craving ceases at awakening, but suffering ceases only
many years later. How does this influence one's understanding of cessation and nibbana?

Regards, Vincent.
cittaanurakkho
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by cittaanurakkho »

Oct 2, 2012:
Note: I am retracting this post, as it is not the right way of proofing. Sorry Tilt.
=============================================================================
tiltbillings wrote: So, you can have sambodhi without having nibbana, and you have nibbana without having sambodhi, is that what you are saying?
If one complete the (Sam)bodhi then one have Nibbana.

One can have Nibbana without having (Sam)bodhi. The proof is from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound.
The Buddha enter nibbana immediately after he emerges from the fourth Jhana without going through (Sam)bodhi. However, Buddha had to go through (Sam)bodhi first when he for the first time enter Nibbana during the night of his awakening. If Buddha can enter Nibbana without going through (Sam)bodhi all the time then (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana.

If (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana, then all the six items in that list (complete disenchantment [ekantanibbāya], dispassion [virāgāya], cessation [nirodhāya], peace[upasamāya], direct knowledge [abhiññāya], enlightenment [sambodhāya]) cannot be read as synonym with Nibbana: they are conditional processes. So does Four Noble Truth and Eight Noble Path.

That is my understanding. I am running out of more ideas and words to show further evidences. So I’d like to rest my case.
Last edited by cittaanurakkho on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cittaanurakkho
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by cittaanurakkho »

Hi Dmytro,

Interesting take on the list. Is the sanna refer to the sanna of the khandas? If I understand you correctly this is like intentionally developing the perception of impermanance, ... ,... , in stages/progressively during the practice?
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by ancientbuddhism »

cittaanurakkho wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: So, you can have sambodhi without having nibbana, and you have nibbana without having sambodhi, is that what you are saying?
If one complete the (Sam)bodhi then one have Nibbana.

One can have Nibbana without having (Sam)bodhi. The proof is from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound.
The Buddha enter nibbana immediately after he emerges from the fourth Jhana without going through (Sam)bodhi. However, Buddha had to go through (Sam)bodhi first when he for the first time enter Nibbana during the night of his awakening. If Buddha can enter Nibbana without going through (Sam)bodhi all the time then (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana.

If (Sam)bodhi is not Nibbana, then all the six items in that list (complete disenchantment [ekantanibbāya], dispassion [virāgāya], cessation [nirodhāya], peace[upasamāya], direct knowledge [abhiññāya], enlightenment [sambodhāya]) cannot be read as synonym with Nibbana: they are conditional processes. So does Four Noble Truth and Eight Noble Path.

That is my understanding. I am running out of more ideas and words to show further evidences. So I’d like to rest my case.


This is a muddle of the parinibbāna of the Buddha with the liberation from greed, antipathy and delusion – Nibbāna - of the arahant.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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cittaanurakkho
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by cittaanurakkho »

ancientbuddhism wrote: This is a muddle of the parinibbāna of the Buddha with the liberation from greed, antipathy and delusion – Nibbāna - of the arahant.
Really? Are you saying he enter a different Nibbana?
daverupa
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Re: A discussion of bodhi

Post by daverupa »

cittaanurakkho wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote: This is a muddle of the parinibbāna of the Buddha with the liberation from greed, antipathy and delusion – Nibbāna - of the arahant.
Really? Are you saying he enter a different Nibbana?
I think he is saying that the final breakup of the aggregates is different than the nibbana which arahants experience in this very life, and quoting from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta is confusing this distinction.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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