Other conditions today???

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:41 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Actually I think its a gratidute problem that is easy caused by thinking that the conditions are always the same and can waste a blessed situation, so I think its very worthy to go on here.

not in the slightest.
because it is not something different at any time.

Such a thought might be the reason why one is still here. All conditions are changing permanently, that is something fundamental in regard of Buddhas insight.
If so, you could suddenly free your self. Now

if you are now in the situation/have the condition of not:

i) paccantaro--a border district where the Buddha
Sasana does not flourish;
ii) arupino--the four Brahma planes of
the formless-sphere;
iii) vitalingo--persons with congenital
defects such as idiocy, etc.
iv) asannasatta--a brahma plane of the
form-sphere of non-consciousness.'
v) micchaditthi--birth among
people holding wrong views,
vi) peta--the peta world;
vii) tiracchana-the animal world, and
viii) niraya-hell.


amoung the many other conditions (paccaya)



Cittasanto wrote:
So why you like to reject that you/we/somebody else have other condition today as 2500 year ago?

that is what this thread is about, and nothing has been shown to sugest that on the level of the teachings and practice is actually different which isn't accounted for at any time.
so off topic is the continued insistance without evidence. please stop posting circular arguments insisting the same thing which started on page one.

If I would say in provucation, you are still not awaken (as there are not the condition for it since now), would that be an argument that conditions are changeable? I diagree with your argumentation, there is nothing which is the same like 2500 years ago, exept the law of cause and effect and its possibility to change the conditions in a way to escape from them. But these condition to escape are always different sometime the conditions make it even impossible for a good while.

Maybe the problem is that you give conditions a positve or negative value. Condition is just condition and this is always caused. When we think on the similies that Buddha had quoted, how rare even a birth as human is one needs to think about the condition to even meat the good teachings and the needed conditions to even understand them.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:49 am

Hanzze
you have been saying the same rubbish since page one where they were irrelivant also.

I am going to be as detailed as possible so you can hopefully understand why you should go somewhere else with this,
at any point what you are saying could be applicable, it could be true/applicable even if in hell, heaven, human planes. even if the Buddha was here today or not heard of it would be potentially true/applicable. it is potentially applicable/true no matter what the case/time is.
hence it is rejected in the scope of this thread as it does not show anything in regard to the questions which are all about what is different/worse/impossible for those who think it is so on the level the teachings are pointing to, hence its continued insistence is irrelevant and hence it is off topic.

you are not representing any argument I have made, or anything I have said or indicated so a straw man/red herring argument on your part, and they are pointless arguments to make as they only deal with what you proliferate not any argument or statement made.

I am not going over this again with you, post your topic in a thread it is relevant to, or start a new thread for it.

all further posts that are off topic will be reported.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:52 pm

Hanzze
I am not angry and request you keep your projections & ad homs too yourself they are nothing to do with me.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:09 pm

Actualy, novadays, we dont have worst or best conditions, we have MORE conditions.

So the one, if he want, cant find many of best, or many of worst conditions.

IMO
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:56 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Hi All,
although I have seen this sentiment before, it is raising its head again, and I am curious
to quote the post
original post of inspiration wrote:would somebody who have no more doubt, doubt that we live 2500 years after the Buddha with other conditions?

(emphasis added)
I am curious in relation to what the Buddha Taught how these "other conditions" make it no longer relevant today?

I personally see no difference on the practical level and the level of the teaching, sure externally we have different means of distracting, pleasuring, & harming ourselves and others, but on the level of practice it is the same from my perspective. Even on the more metaphysical level of rebirth, heavens... these have not been disproved to my knowledge either, so can still be seen as relevant & useful by those who believe in such things.
those of you who believe there are different conditions... than 2600 years ago please clarify what they are and why?

so here are more precise questions for those who believe there are "other conditions" and remember responses maybe challenged so use evidence/support where possible.

Question 1 wrote:what are these other conditions?


Question 2 wrote:why & how are they different to causes in the time of the Buddha?


Question 3 wrote:how & why are the teachings disproved, irrelevant, not appropriate due to these new conditions?


Question 4 wrote:how is this outside world more materialistic/worse for practice/what ever else you believe it to be, and how does that change things in regard to the teachings & practice?


Question 5 wrote:how are we different (in relation to the Buddhas teachings & practice) to people back when the teachings took place? and why does this matter?


Question 6a wrote:how & why is it more complicated/difficult to see today than then? how do we proliferate, ignore the obvious, fool ourselves any more than then?

if 6a is not relivant to you please answer 6b instead


Question 6b wrote:how & why is it easier to see today than in the Buddha's time? how don't we proliferate, ignore the obvious, fool ourselves less than then?

if both 6a & 6b are not relevant please come up with your own question and answer it, but please indicate a question you are answering



(edited to try to make it easier to understand.)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Alex123 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:33 pm

Hello Cittasanto,

Would you accept the teaching about Dhamma Ending age?

‘When the letters are wrongly pronounced and there is wrong interpretation of their meaning. For when the pronunciation is wrong, the interpretation will also be wrong’ (A.I,59).


Problem is that we are not native pali speakers. The translations vary from bad to good (hopefully). Even within Theravada there are various ways of interpreting and arguing about what such and such passage truly mean. Look at Christianity with how many different schools they have based on one little Book. Tipitaka plus commentaries is much much larger.

Some of the books on Amazon regarding Buddhism are so way-off that no wonder we are living in stage of decline where Dhamma is drowned by Adhamma.

[At Saavatthii Kassapa asked the Buddha:] "What is the reason, Lord, and depending on what conditions is it that formerly there were fewer precepts, yet more monks attained enlightenment?[1] What is the reason, Lord, and depending on what conditions is it that nowadays there are more precepts, and fewer monks attain enlightenment?"

"It is like this, Kassapa. When beings are in decline,[2] and the true Dhamma is waning, then there are more precepts and fewer monks attain enlightenment.

But there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma, Kassapa, till a counterfeit Dhamma arises in the world; but when a counterfeit Dhamma arises, then there is a disappearance of the true Dhamma, just as there is no disappearing of gold so long as no counterfeit gold has arisen in the world...[3] The earth-element[4] does not make the true Dhamma disappear, the water-element... the fire-element... the air-element..., But right here[5] men of straw[6] appear, and it is they who bring about the disappearance of the true Dhamma.
SN 16.13 Saddhamma-pa.tiruupaka.m Sutta: False Dhamma translated from the Pali by Maurice O'Connell Walshe


Just check what kinds of books on Buddhism get published... Or see the different interpretations of the suttas...
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:35 pm

Alex123 wrote:Hello Cittasanto,

Would you accept the teaching about Dhamma Ending age?

‘When the letters are wrongly pronounced and there is wrong interpretation of their meaning. For when the pronunciation is wrong, the interpretation will also be wrong’ (A.I,59).

Although there is a point when the Dhamma teachings will dissapear this quote is regarding the passing down through memorisation not the textual.
I believe it is accepted from the 5th or 6th council held in Burma 60years ago or so that the errors were corrected that crept into each schools (countries) recitation.

Problem is that we are not native pali speakers. The translations vary from bad to good (hopefully). Even within Theravada there are various ways of interpreting and arguing about what such and such passage truly mean. Look at Christianity with how many different schools they have based on one little Book. Tipitaka plus commentaries is much much larger.

There is a crucial difference between the bible and the pali canon. the Bible was not originating from one source or language so internal consistency was not testable in the same way, and the new testiment was kept and writen in at least three languages at least 50 years after the fact through secondary sources. so the dhamma ending age would need to of started within the 500/600 years after the Buddha died for the canon to of been corrupted to an extent where seakers can not find the true dhamma anywhere.

Some of the books on Amazon regarding Buddhism are so way-off that no wonder we are living in stage of decline where Dhamma is drowned by Adhamma.

agreed.

[At Saavatthii Kassapa asked the Buddha:] "What is the reason, Lord, and depending on what conditions is it that formerly there were fewer precepts, yet more monks attained enlightenment?[1] What is the reason, Lord, and depending on what conditions is it that nowadays there are more precepts, and fewer monks attain enlightenment?"

"It is like this, Kassapa. When beings are in decline,[2] and the true Dhamma is waning, then there are more precepts and fewer monks attain enlightenment.

But there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma, Kassapa, till a counterfeit Dhamma arises in the world; but when a counterfeit Dhamma arises, then there is a disappearance of the true Dhamma, just as there is no disappearing of gold so long as no counterfeit gold has arisen in the world...[3] The earth-element[4] does not make the true Dhamma disappear, the water-element... the fire-element... the air-element..., But right here[5] men of straw[6] appear, and it is they who bring about the disappearance of the true Dhamma.
SN 16.13 Saddhamma-pa.tiruupaka.m Sutta: False Dhamma translated from the Pali by Maurice O'Connell Walshe


Just check what kinds of books on Buddhism get published... Or see the different interpretations of the suttas...

I find this quote quite relevant to this thread in many ways.

I remember a post not to long ago by a bhikkhu or former Bhikkhu who is interested in the study of the suttas who recieved a good tongue bashing from a meditation teacher with with a disgust for that sort of thing saying "you shouldn't rely on the texts..." so in a way it can be harder to come to the Dhamma. and certainly with fallacies running around.
but I do not accept the Dhamma has been lost, even if we need to cultivate discernment to see it in the suttas.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Alex123 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:54 pm

Cittasanto wrote:Although there is a point when the Dhamma teachings will dissapear this quote is regarding the passing down through memorisation not the textual. I believe it is accepted from the 5th or 6th council held in Burma 60years ago or so that the errors were corrected that crept into each schools (countries) recitation.


To be blunt, we do not know exactly what the Buddha as historical person has taught. He left no voice recordings or written texts.
We can't know for sure what Early Sangha memorized prior to pali being written down.
We can't know for sure how accurate was writing down pali onto palm leaves (which I don't believe has survived till today).
We rely on the English translations of pali texts which where written down.

Too many stages! How can we be certain that this isn't the case of "broken telephone" with some crucial meaning being lost?

While I believe and hope that in general and for the most part we have fairly accurate depiction, it would be hard to prove that we have 100% accurate word-by-word translation of what the Buddha has really taught and without mis-interpretations on the part of teachers or ourselves. You can see all the discussions about a single word such as "sati" on this board. Nothing to say about 5,000+ pages of suttas!

Even in Buddha's time, studying under the Buddha himself, there were monks such as Sati who have misunderstood the Buddha in their native language.

What about us?

Cittasanto wrote:There is a crucial difference between the bible and the pali canon. the Bible was not originating from one source or language so internal consistency was not testable in the same way, and the new testiment was kept and writen in at least three languages at least 50 years after the fact through secondary sources. so the dhamma ending age would need to of started within the 500/600 years after the Buddha died for the canon to of been corrupted to an extent where seakers can not find the true dhamma anywhere.


The suttas suggest that Buddha spoke multiple dialects. So do you think that He has ALWAYS spoke pali and that pali canon (at least in part) is not a translation from other dialects?
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:03 pm

Alex123 wrote:To be blunt, we do not know exactly what the Buddha as historical person has taught. He left no voice recordings or written texts.
We can't know for sure what Early Sangha memorized prior to pali being written down.
We can't know for sure how accurate was writing down pali onto palm leaves (which I don't believe has survived till today).
We rely on the English translations of pali texts which where written down.

Too many stages! How can we be certain that this isn't the case of "broken telephone" with some crucial meaning being lost?

then this can not be verifiable!
"Some of the books on Amazon regarding Buddhism are so way-off that no wonder we are living in stage of decline where Dhamma is drowned by Adhamma. "

and any endeavour is pointless because we have no trust, so do not even try due to doubt.
the standard of the Dhamma is where it is pointing, and this is a marker for practice.

While I believe and hope that in general and for the most part we have fairly accurate depiction, it would be hard to prove that we have 100% accurate word-by-word translation of what the Buddha has really taught and without mis-interpretations on the part of teachers or ourselves. You can see all the discussions about a single word such as "sati" on this board. Nothing to say about 5,000+ pages of suttas!

but a language barrier can be bridged. a word-by-word translation is not always appropriate because a word can carry several slightly varying meanings that are not conveyed by one words in another language.


Even in Buddha's time, studying under the Buddha himself, there were monks such as Sati who have misunderstood the Buddha in their native language.

What about us?

like was previously said, this is something that can happen at any time, but, the main issue is cross examination, do the texts mirror our experience, are we calling things what the canon is or using other names? part of the reason discussion on a single word can be quite big IMO.
Is the this aiming at ease; disentanglement... or not? are some questions to ask from the canon.

Cittasanto wrote:There is a crucial difference between the bible and the pali canon. the Bible was not originating from one source or language so internal consistency was not testable in the same way, and the new testiment was kept and writen in at least three languages at least 50 years after the fact through secondary sources. so the dhamma ending age would need to of started within the 500/600 years after the Buddha died for the canon to of been corrupted to an extent where seakers can not find the true dhamma anywhere.


The suttas suggest that Buddha spoke multiple dialects. So do you think that He has ALWAYS spoke pali and that pali canon (at least in part) is not a translation from other dialects?[/quote]
sure it is translated, but look at sanskrit.
Unlike Pali and sanskrit & other languages in the area the problem with latin greek and the other languages is they are different languages with none or very few shared words or alphabet. writing about something second hand, with multiple authors who did not even know each other pulling ideas from all over the place to the point where genesis can not agree with itself on creation and the reasons for creation of man. is jesus descended in this line or that? did jesus die on the cross or was it judas, or simon? did judas hang himself or did his guts burst open? did jesus resurrect or not?
There is a difference in the two to a greater level than simply language.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Alex123 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:20 pm

I don't have much to add other than even in the Buddha's time, with the best teacher, some monks could misunderstand Him.Furthermore there is a sutta where Kassapa asked "

    "What is the reason, Lord, and depending on what conditions is it that formerly there were fewer precepts, yet more monks attained enlightenment? What is the reason, Lord, and depending on what conditions is it that nowadays there are more precepts, and fewer monks attain enlightenment?" SN16.13


The degradation of the teaching, ANICCA, started even during Buddha's lifetime. Nothing to say about us, and monks who never even saw Buddha, and his first generation of students.

I am sorry If I cannot sound more convincing. I DO hope that true Dhamma is still available, it just has to be dug up under many layers of interpretation.
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Re: Other conditions today???

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:35 pm

Alex123 wrote:I don't have much to add other than even in the Buddha's time, with the best teacher, some monks could misunderstand Him.Furthermore there is a sutta where Kassapa asked "

    "What is the reason, Lord, and depending on what conditions is it that formerly there were fewer precepts, yet more monks attained enlightenment? What is the reason, Lord, and depending on what conditions is it that nowadays there are more precepts, and fewer monks attain enlightenment?" SN16.13


The degradation of the teaching, ANICCA, started even during Buddha's lifetime. Nothing to say about us, and monks who never even saw Buddha, and his first generation of students.

I am sorry If I cannot sound more convincing. I DO hope that true Dhamma is still available, it just has to be dug up under many layers of interpretation.

We agree here, I think the disagreement would come with how much change has happened and if it changes anything or not.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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