Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby whynotme » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:44 am

Hanzze wrote:If I would be playful I would now answer: "IMO, don't use your awareness to judge an arahant awareness."

"Look at the content of that story, he wept when he remembered the experience" ahh, you talk about Ajahn Maha Bua. You might be right, but I don't know what has happened later. Some on there way to Arahantship cry even a lot and sometimes we do never hear stories after such happens and from later on.

Don't worry to much, you not on the wrong lane with your thought but it's somehow a waste of time to indentify Arahants, its good to know and be sure that there are some even not so seen.

Dear Hanzze,

I don't want to derail the thread, and I am not worried. Actually I don't know anything about Ajahn Maha Bua. If he was really an arahant and that story didn't happen, I don't care much because I just analyzed an story. If that story really happened then he was not even a sotapanna. And this kind of story shows some insight, the relation between things, cause and effect in the mind. If you can contribute to the knowledge of cause and effect then please continue, just don't fear the name of the monks.

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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:50 am

Giving names and stories in reagard of "specific persons" aside "then he was not even a sotapanna" is maybe not a correct conclusion (when just based on that what was written by somebody), whymotme. A sotapanna is not free from all fetters and still has greed, harted and delusion as fuel to turn on and even such things could happen. The chain of cuase and effect is not distoyed by reaching the stream, so tanha still arises on vedana caused by contact, as there is still more or less (even subtile) "I" illusion.


(4) sensuous craving (kāma-cchanda = kāma-rāga; s. rāga),
(5) ill-will (vyāpāda = dosa, s. mūla).
(6) craving for fine material existence (rūpa-rāga),
(7) craving for immaterial existence. (arūpa-rāga),
(8) conceit (māna),
(9) restlessness (uddhacca),
(10) ignorance (avijjā).

from: ariya

still would be present for a sotapanna.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby whynotme » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:16 am

Of course sotapanna still has ignorance, but do you think he will kill others, kill his parents? The ignorance of sotapanna is different to a normal person, you and me, he already saw the path, he will not kill his parents which is an action lead to hell.

Do you think someone who think he is an arahant while he is not, can be a sotapanna? This is a novice mistake, a wrong viewing on the path, not a small mistake

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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:29 am

I guess your thought are maybe to wide spread. We talked about tears and if a sotapanna could have such. I thought we took distance form the story and the person already. No even the killing of parents appears (which is no more possible for a sotapanna, yes)

"Do you think someone who think he is an arahant while he is not, can be a sotapanna?" Yes, as mana is still present.

"...not a small mistake" It could be violating of the Bhikkhu rules, but we are not here to judge this (a person, a being), aren't we?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby equilibrium » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:34 am

whynotme wrote:
BubbaBuddhist wrote:Ajahn Maha Bua, when he was describing his experience of attaining arhantship, wept at the memory as he described the experience. This lead to detractors publicly commenting he couldn't have achieved 'true' bodhi because if he had, he wouldn't show such emotion. He said in a follow-up commentary that it was foolish to think an arhant couldn't weep. That it was the skhandas that wept, but the citta of an arhant was unaffected. Perhaps something to consider in this discussion.

BB

I don't believe in arahant who wept. The Buddha taught the standstill in front of feelings, if he wept because of emotion, then he was not arahant. Saying arahant can weep because of emotion is like saying arahant can have sexual intercourse and the mind still was unaffected because it is just only the skhandas that having sex. Emotion is cause and effect of the mind, the one who differs skhanda emotions to his responsibility is not an arahant

Regards

When one mentions the word "believe", one must be aware of ones limitations as one does not "know".
We should not dwell in believe and to seek the truth by the teaching so we too can know what needs to be known.
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:13 pm

Furthermore, a sottapanna can apparently also have sexual intercourse, see Lady Kali for one example (Hemavata Sutta; Sutta Niipata 153.80) among others.

BB
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby drifting cloud » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:33 am

At risk of sounding trollish, maybe the best answer to this question is to become an arahant and see what happens?

:anjali:
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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby whynotme » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:18 am

drifting cloud wrote:At risk of sounding trollish, maybe the best answer to this question is to become an arahant and see what happens?

:anjali:

Well, IMO, some people, not specifically to the OP, will wonder, what is the value of ending all suffering while still experiencing pain and suffering. If an arahant still has pain, what is the value of achieve arahantship?

They should know that the ending of suffering taught by the Buddha, is in fact not the ending of current suffering but the ending of the cause of suffering. Therefor current pain still exists because of the body caused by causes in the past. But for future, the cause has ceased, there will be no body to experience any pain

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Re: Arahants still experiencing pain AND suffering ?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:40 am

whynotme,

Who would feel pain if there is no more identification with it? Have you ever seen somebody bleeding and the thought, "Ohh, he must suffer", but as soon as you asked him, he even did not know that he bleeds. That is in case of uncounciousness out of ignorance. There is also the case of no surface (uncounciousness) out of understanding.

If you search for a sample for it, this might be useful even it is not rally correct compareable.

Or you might know shock situations, where the mind is so aware, that there is no real sensation even there are heavy wounds.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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