When I have read this topic, I think "Oh, I just know the Buddha is orthodox theravāda" and "Devadatta is catholic theravāda".
1.Secure living of population, include vegetarianism, are the cause of killing many prisons, so that vegetarianism shouldn't living. Why they are still keep to living ?
2.Vegetarianism didn't intend to kill them is the cause to still living, isn't it ?
3.First sīla is refer to killing intention, it not just refer to physical killing, isn't it ?
Maarten, more than one of thailand tipitaka professor teach like your words, on the top of topic, such as P.A. Payutto --UNESCO Prize for Peace Education, Bhadanta Sumon Nandiko, Bhadanta Santi Uttamapuñño, Bhadanta Sombat Nandiko, Sujin Borihanvannakat.
(I have a little bit worry about my reply. I just try to clearly explain my knowledge. I don't want to satirize anyone. But I'm terrible in english, about how to do a pretty explanation more than what I doing.)
P.S. Why accesstoinsight hasn't Āmagandha Sutta translating while another websites have it.
Wide View of Vegetarianism.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism
Cammakkhandhaka : Rule of skin using(pali).
Panītabhojana Sikkhapada (pali): Exception to request food such as meat.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#Pc39
Mahavagga Pali - Bhesajjakkhandhaka - Vinaya Pitaka :
The Buddha allowed his monks to eat pork, chicken and beef if the animal was not killed for the purpose of providing food for monks. Theravada also believes that the Buddha allowed the monks to choose a vegetarian diet, but only prohibited against eating human, elephant, horse, dog, snake, lion, tiger, bear, leopard, and hyena flesh. http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/vin02m2.mul5.xml
The ascetic Tissa addressed the Buddha Kassapa
1. Millet, cingula beans and peas, edible leaves and roots, the fruit of any creeper; the virtuous who eat these, obtained justly, do not tell lies out of sensuous delight.
2. O Kassapa, you who eat any food given by others, which is well-prepared, nicely arranged, pure and appealing; he who enjoys such food made with rice, eats [rotting flesh that emits a] stench.
3. O brahmin, although you say that the charge of stench does not apply to you whilst eating rice with well-prepared fowl, yet I inquire the meaning of this from you: of what kind is your stench?
4. The Buddha Kassapa: Taking life, beating, wounding, binding, stealing, lying, deceiving, worthless knowledge, adultery; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
5. In this world those individuals who are unrestrained in sensual pleasures, who are greedy for sweet things, who are associated with impure actions, who are of nihilistic views, [which are] crooked and difficult to follow, this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
6. In this world those who are rude, arrogant, backbiting, treacherous, unkind, excessively egoistic, miserly, and do not give anything to anybody; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
7. Anger, pride, obstinacy, antagonism, deceit, envy, boasting, excessive egoism, association with the immoral; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
8. Those who are of bad morals, refuse to pay their debts, slanderous, deceitful in their dealings, pretentious, those who in this world, being the vilest of men, commit such wrong things; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
9. Those persons who, in this world, are uncontrolled towards living beings, who are bent on injuring others, having taken their belongings; immoral, cruel, harsh, disrespectful; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
10. Those who attack these living beings either out of greed or of hostility and are always bent upon evil, go to darkness after death, and fall headlong into woeful states; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
11. Abstaining from fish and meat, nakedness, shaving of the head, matted hair, smearing with ashes, wearing rough deerskins, attending the sacrificial fire; none of the various penances in the world performed for unhealthy ends, neither incantations, oblations, sacrifices nor seasonal observances, purify a person who has not overcome his doubts.
12. He who lives with his senses guarded and conquered and is established in the Dhamma, delights in uprightness and gentleness; who has gone beyond attachments and has overcome all sorrows; that wise man does not cling to what is seen and heard.
13. Thus the Buddha Kassapa preached this again and again. That ascetic who was well-versed in the [Vedic] hymns understood it. The sage who is free from defilements, non-attached and difficult to follow, uttered this [discourse] in beautiful stanzas.
14. Thus having listened to the well-spoken words of the Buddha who is free from defilements, which end all misery, he worshipped the Tathāgāta with humble mind and requested to be admitted into the Order at that very place.
(Sutta Nipāta, Hammalawa Saddhātissa, Curzon Press)
Commentary to the Āmagandha Sutta
Where was the Āmagandha Sutta taught? By whom was it taught, and to whom? The commentary to a Sutta often adds important information about the context in which the teaching was given. Out of context, some discourses can easily be misunderstood.
The commentary traces the origin of this sutta to a period before the appearance of Buddha Gotama. A Brahmin named Āmagandha led the life of a hermit along with five hundred disciples. They lived in the Himalayan foot hills where they had a hermitage and lived on forest fruits and roots. They abstained completely from fish and meat. Due to a deficiency of salt in their diet, all of the hermits suffered from jaundice. For this reason they went to a border village to beg for salt and vinegar. Being warmly invited by the villagers who respectfully provided them with almsfood, they spent four months a year in dwellings built by the villagers.
Then the Buddha arose in the world and after setting in motion the Wheel of the Dhamma, he arrived at Sāvatthi after some years. While residing there, the Buddha saw these hermits in his divine eye and realised that they had the necessary perfections for the attainment of Arahantship. Accordingly, the Buddha went to the village where they stayed for four months of the year, and taught the Dhamma to the villagers. The villagers became Stream-winners, Once-returners, and Non-returners, while a few of them entered the Sangha and became Arahants.
When the hermits led by Āmagandha came to the village to seek salt as usual, they noticed a conspicuous change in the behaviour of the villagers. The villagers no longer greeted them with the great excitement that they had shown previously. Amāgandha asked whether there was a famine, or if they had been punished by the king, or whether there was some fault in the conduct of the hermits to explain the transformation of the village. The villagers told him about the arrival of the Buddha, whose teaching of the Dhamma they had heard, and from which they had all benefited immensely. When the hermit Āmagandha heard the word “Buddha,” he asked, “Did you say ‘Buddha,’ householder? Even this sound is rare to hear in this world.” When the householder confirmed it he was pleased and asked further, “Does the Buddha eat stench?” The householder asked, “What is this stench?” Āmagandha replied, “Fish and meat is called stench.” The householder replied, “Venerable sir, the Buddha does eat fish and meat.” Disappointed at this, Āmagandha resolved to go and see the Buddha and ask him about it himself.
Having asked where the Buddha stayed, Āmagandha set off hastily towards the Jetavana grove at Sāvatthī, accompanied by the five hundred hermits. When the hermits arrived, the Buddha was seated in the fourfold assembly to teach the Dhamma. After mutual exchange of friendly greetings, the hermit Āmagandha asked the Buddha if he avoided eating fish and meat, which he considered to be stench. The Buddha replied that fish and meat should not be considered as stench. On the other hand, all kinds of mental defilements and unwholesome deeds should be regarded as stench. To convince Āmagandha completely, the Buddha recollected the same dialogue between himself and the Buddha Kassapa.
At that time the Bodhisatta had been a Brahmin by the name of Tissa who had asked the same question. Āmagandha’s pride was humbled, and he entered the Sangha along with his five hundred disciples, who all attained Arahantship.
Translated with commentary :http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Suttas/Ama ... andha.html
Pali :http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#v.241
Devadatta eating meat prohibition requestion
Still trying to be the leader of the Sangha, Devadatta tried yet another plan — a deceitful one. With the help of five hundred misled monks, he planned to split the Sangha community.
He requested the Buddha to make it compulsory for monks to follow five extra rules:
(i) Dwell all their lives in the forest
(ii) Live only on alms obtained by begging
(iii) Wear robes made from rags collected from the dust heaps and cemeteries
(iv) Live at the foot of trees
(v) Refrain from eating fish or meat throughout their lives.
Devadatta made this request, knowing full well that the Buddha would refuse it. Devadatta was happy that the Buddha did not approve of the five rules, and he used these issues to gain supporters and followers. Newly ordained monks who did not know the Dharma well left the Buddha and accepted Devadatta as their leader. Eventually, after Venerable Sariputta and Venerable Moggallana had explained the Dharma to them, they went back to the Buddha.
source : http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... _5lbud.htm
pali : http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/vin01 ... ml#para408