[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4688: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4690: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4691: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4692: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
Dhamma Wheel • View topic - Untangling myself from incorrect view

Untangling myself from incorrect view

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby curious_buddhist » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:05 am

Hi everyone

I am in the process of untangling myself from the effects of some damaging teachings I received by a questionable monk whom I took refuge under several years ago.

My question concerns the development of sila, samadhi and panne. Am I right in saying that concentration and wisdom cannot develop in the absence of ethical conduct, or at best just a weak form of wisdom can be achieved?

I was observing the five precepts, abstaining from intoxicants. This particular teacher suggested that I was 'fixated' on developing moral conduct and that I needed to drink to let go of this fixation. His justification was that once you've let go of attachment to such things as alcohol, money, etc you are free to engage in their use and live in the world. I've never seen a monk drink alcohol like this guy, not to mention taking students out for cocktails and drinks at his retreats.

What on earth is a monk doing encouraging students to break the five precepts? What on earth is monk doing breaking the most basic precepts?

Anyone should at least be honest with others and oneself that they are not observing precepts, rather than wriggling their way out and trying to justify breaking them. I haven't seen anywhere in the suttas the Lord Buddha saying I have now abandoned all conditioned existence, time to indulge in drugs, alcohol and sex because I'm no longer attached, right?

Thanks for your advice
:namaste:
Lord Buddha: Sariputta, do you believe this teaching
Sariputta: No, I don't yet believe it
Lord Buddha: Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he should consider first before believing
curious_buddhist
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:13 am

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby pegembara » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:10 am

This teaching by the Buddha is relevant by those still caught up by greed, aversion and ignorance.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

Satta Sutta
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
 
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:17 am

curious_buddhist wrote:Anyone should at least be honest with others and oneself that they are not observing precepts, rather than wriggling their way out and trying to justify breaking them. I haven't seen anywhere in the suttas the Lord Buddha saying I have now abandoned all conditioned existence, time to indulge in drugs, alcohol and sex because I'm no longer attached, right?

Thanks for your advice
:namaste:

One who is enlightened is actually incapable of having sex or consuming alcohol willingly - this monk was very, very wrong. Thank goodness you had the wisdom to realize the folly of his statements. I would encourage you to find another teacher for sure if you still have any connection with this man; his actions are enough to justify his disrobing if what you say is accurate!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby curious_buddhist » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:54 am

Thanks for your response.

I should clarify that his comments strictly relate to the consumption of alcohol, and not the other things I mentioned.
Lord Buddha: Sariputta, do you believe this teaching
Sariputta: No, I don't yet believe it
Lord Buddha: Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he should consider first before believing
curious_buddhist
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:13 am

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:01 am

curious_buddhist wrote:Thanks for your response.

I should clarify that his comments strictly relate to the consumption of alcohol, and not the other things I mentioned.

The consumption of alcohol is very, very forbidden for monks, either way.

But more importantly, his flawed understanding of detachment and letting go is seriously dangerous.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby curious_buddhist » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:28 am

Yes, this was but one of many dubious practices I witnessed being performed by this monk. The moment I started hearing claims of his "miraculous ability to control the weather" I got as far away from his organisation as possible.

I pray that he sees the error in his ways and that none of his students are hurt by these practices.
Lord Buddha: Sariputta, do you believe this teaching
Sariputta: No, I don't yet believe it
Lord Buddha: Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he should consider first before believing
curious_buddhist
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:13 am

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:37 am

curious_buddhist wrote:Yes, this was but one of many dubious practices I witnessed being performed by this monk. The moment I started hearing claims of his "miraculous ability to control the weather" I got as far away from his organisation as possible.

I pray that he sees the error in his ways and that none of his students are hurt by these practices.

Indeed. Perhaps include him in metta meditation!

Have you found a more stable Sangha to practice with?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:39 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:One who is enlightened is actually incapable of having sex or consuming alcohol willingly


How could you know this? What is your source for this beleif?
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
User avatar
m0rl0ck
 
Posts: 1051
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:13 am

m0rl0ck wrote:How could you know this? What is your source for this beleif?


The Nine things an Arahant cannot do:

1. Store up possessions
2. Intentionally kill any form of life
3. Steal
4. Perform sexual intercourse
5. Tell a deliberate lie
6. Act improperly out of desire
7. Act improperly out of ill-will
8. Act improperly out of delusion
9. Act improperly out of fear

This is according to many sutta passages, including Anguttara Nikaya 9.7.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby m0rl0ck » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:25 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:How could you know this? What is your source for this beleif?


The Nine things an Arahant cannot do:

1. Store up possessions
2. Intentionally kill any form of life
3. Steal
4. Perform sexual intercourse
5. Tell a deliberate lie
6. Act improperly out of desire
7. Act improperly out of ill-will
8. Act improperly out of delusion
9. Act improperly out of fear

This is according to many sutta passages, including Anguttara Nikaya 9.7.


Thanks for the cite. I seem to remember reading that now and dismissing it as hyperbole. Which of those would be in conflict if one had to kill a dangerous wild animal to protect innocents?

Or lie to protect innocents?
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
User avatar
m0rl0ck
 
Posts: 1051
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby barcsimalsi » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:20 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:One who is enlightened is actually incapable of having sex or consuming alcohol willingly


How could you know this? What is your source for this beleif?


The Buddha taught about 32 Bodyparts meditation to disgust the attraction of opposite sex. But since not every Buddhist practice that type of meditation so here's another reason:
Arahant is known to have totally cut out the roots of lust and with the cessation of feeling'n'perception through Jhanas, it is comprehendible that their sex drive is gone. I'm afraid if Tiger Woods get to about know this he will...
barcsimalsi
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:33 am

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:55 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:Thanks for the cite. I seem to remember reading that now and dismissing it as hyperbole. Which of those would be in conflict if one had to kill a dangerous wild animal to protect innocents?

Or lie to protect innocents?

An arahant could not do it. An arahant could throw themselves to the wild animal or even restrain the wild animal, but they could not consciously kill it because the root of killing - attachment to being, hatred, or fear - is not present in them.

Same goes for lying I guess. If someone asked an Arahant, "Which way did this man go? I will kill you if you do not tell me," then he would probably just let them kill him.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby curious_buddhist » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:24 am

Thanks for all your advice on this one.

Yes, I'm fortunate to have one of Ajahn Chah's branch monasteries close by so I've begun attending teachings there and noticing a general improvement in my practice ever since.

My experience has led me to question everything I am taught, inadvertently placing me in a position where I don't immediately accept what I'm told simply on the basis of tradition or of the charm of the person saying it.
Lord Buddha: Sariputta, do you believe this teaching
Sariputta: No, I don't yet believe it
Lord Buddha: Good, good, Sariputta. A wise person doesn't readily believe, he should consider first before believing
curious_buddhist
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:13 am

Re: Untangling myself from incorrect view

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:44 am

curious_buddhist wrote:My experience has led me to question everything I am taught, inadvertently placing me in a position where I don't immediately accept what I'm told simply on the basis of tradition or of the charm of the person saying it.

Well that's for the best!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America


Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests