Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm

Sometimes it seems that there is no such thing as confession in Buddhist practice, but I guess that is a wrong idea. Maybe it is because it is not so much directed to an outwardly judge or watcher, but the watcher in ones heart.

While in traditional Buddhist countries the (re)-taking of precepts is a weekly ritual and with its usuallity often less effectfull, it seems to be kind of not present in the "new" countries.

What are your thoughts?

In regard of recongnizing the breaking of a precepts and the way to "solve" the problem.
In regard of admiting breaks even to others and its effects.
In regard of the danger of business as usuall admiting and re-taking.

In addition I thought this would be interesting:
Modern sociologists have identified five basic strategies that people use to avoid accepting blame when they've caused harm, and it's noteworthy that the Pali teaching on moral responsibility serves to undercut all five.The strategies are:
* to deny responsibility,
* to deny that harm [wrong doing] was actually done,
* to deny the worth of the victim [oneself included],
* to attack the accuser [also be angry with one self],
* and to claim that they were acting in the service of a higher cause.

from Reconciliation, Right & Wrong
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby dhammapal » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:55 am

Majjhima 61 wrote:Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.
From: Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta: Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Samyutta Nikaya 42.8 wrote:A disciple has faith in (the Buddha) and reflects: 'The Blessed One in a variety of ways criticizes & censures the taking of life, and says, "Abstain from taking life." There are living beings that I have killed, to a greater or lesser extent. That was not right. That was not good. But if I become remorseful for that reason, that evil deed of mine will not be undone.' So, reflecting thus, he abandons right then the taking of life, and in the future refrains from taking life. This is how there comes to be the abandoning of that evil deed. This is how there comes to be the transcending of that evil deed.

"[He reflects:] 'The Blessed One in a variety of ways criticizes & censures stealing... indulging in illicit sex... the telling of lies, and says, "Abstain from the telling of lies." There are lies that I have told, to a greater or lesser extent. That was not right. That was not good. But if I become remorseful for that reason, that evil deed of mine will not be undone.' So, reflecting thus, he abandons right then the telling of lies, and in the future refrains from telling lies. This is how there comes to be the abandoning of that evil deed. This is how there comes to be the transcending of that evil deed.

"Having abandoned the taking of life, he refrains from taking life. Having abandoned stealing, he refrains from stealing. Having abandoned illicit sex, he refrains from illicit sex. Having abandoned lies, he refrains from lies. Having abandoned divisive speech, he refrains from divisive speech. Having abandoned harsh speech, he refrains from harsh speech. Having abandoned idle chatter, he refrains from idle chatter. Having abandoned covetousness, he becomes uncovetous. Having abandoned ill will & anger, he becomes one with a mind of no ill will. Having abandoned wrong views, he becomes one who has right views.

"That disciple of the noble ones, headman — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through good will is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there.

"That disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction with an awareness imbued with compassion... appreciation... equanimity, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with equanimity — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through equanimity is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there."
From: Sankha Sutta translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

With metta / dhammapal.
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:01 pm

Hanzze wrote:Sometimes it seems that there is no such thing as confession in Buddhist practice, but I guess that is a wrong idea. Maybe it is because it is not so much directed to an outwardly judge or watcher, but the watcher in ones heart.

There is no requisite for confessing for lay-people I can think of but confession is certainly part of Buddhism here are some I know of
translated by Cittasanto wrote:The standard description for how one should confess found in the suttas & vinaya is;
before the confession

“Mendicants, on account of a mendicant approaching a meditator,1 with their upper robe arranged properly, they sit kneeling down with their hands raised in añjali, they then speak in this manner.”

Confession for an offence one is certain about – VinI 2.27.i
“Friend, i have fallen into 'such & such' an offence, i confess this!
(Meditators response) 'Do you Understand?'
(Mendicants reply) 'Yes I do understand!'
(Meditators reply) 'Then be restrained within yourself in the future!”

Confession for uncertainty about possible offence – VinI 2.27ii
“Friend I have doubt if I have committed 'such & such' an offence. When I have come to certainty regarding this matter, then the offence will be corrected.”

Alternative for an apology, found in AN4.159
“Honourable One, i was overcome and transgressed against you, i was weak, foolish, and unskilful to act in 'such & such' a way, May the Honourable & Noble 'one' accept my apology for the offence, and I will be restrained in the future”
(meditators response) “You were weak, foolish, and unskilful to act in 'such & such' a way, I accept your apology for the offence, so be restrained in the future”

or if a general personal confession

By body, speech, or mind, whatever improper act I have committed toward the Triple Gem, may this recognition of fault be accepted, as I will be, from now on, restrained toward the Triple Gem.


While in traditional Buddhist countries the (re)-taking of precepts is a weekly ritual and with its usuallity often less effectfull, it seems to be kind of not present in the "new" countries.

I have only been to one group which didn't retake the precepts every week, and they are a meditation group, not a Buddhist group.

In regard of recongnizing the breaking of a precepts and the way to "solve" the problem.

1- very benefiscial, and should be done when one sees the fault.

In regard of admiting breaks even to others and its effects.

2- Very benefiscial, a weekly ritual to manifest what one has done to another is very humbling.

In regard of the danger of business as usuall admiting and re-taking.

3- it is for each person to use things propperly. encouragement should be given to develop the right intention in this.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:43 am

Cittasanto wrote:There is no requisite for confessing for lay-people I can think of but confession is certainly part of Buddhism here are some I know of


Thanks for your share, Cittasanto, of the Vinaya aspect, of course ther is no rule that one needs to confess a misdeed for Laypeople, but actually it is a requisite for further development of right right view and insght. The way one makes this (inwardly or even also outwardly) is up the the person, and I like your comments in regard of this is the upper part of your post.
It is somehow an invitation to try it by one self to see the benefit from it. But as there is no broad frame of Bhikkhu Sangha and to join a secure way it should be also an invitation to even greate some similar "rituales" amoung laypeople. I am aware that there is some kind of aversion out of Christan traumatas, but even people who know this Christian kind of confession (which is of course wrong directed if it goes to a person or being to beg forgiviness) will maybe remember its benefits (as well as their possible misuses)

So there is only one point in your post that makes me reacting here and that is the understandig of "no requisite for confessing for lay-people" which is totaly right if they don't like to make progress but in regard of progress (even better) there is no difference to Bhikkhus and such ways could be also addopted in laymans groups. Of course it needs a lot of care for each other. You might know such things from "Alcoholics Anonymous" or other phsychological groups wher thinks are spoken from the heart. It lightens in any way and in the frame of a Buddhist view, there would be no judgement, but just support from the others.

By body, speech, or mind, whatever improper act I have committed toward the Triple Gem, may this recognition of fault be accepted, as I will be, from now on, restrained toward the Triple Gem

This seems to be very equal to Christian confession and I wonder if such a confession would be really useful. For sure if one really understands the meaning of the Triple Gem, there wil be no danger, but otherwise it is simple the same like Christian do.
So maybe you can provide more information in regard of this statement or usual sentence.

I would recommend such a way like this more (of cause as an inner dialog):

“Friend, i have fallen into 'such & such' an offence, i confess this!
(Meditators response) 'Do you Understand?'
(Mendicants reply) 'Yes I do understand!'
(Meditators reply) 'Then be restrained within yourself in the future!”
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:24 am

Hanzze wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:There is no requisite for confessing for lay-people I can think of but confession is certainly part of Buddhism here are some I know of


Thanks for your share, Cittasanto, of the Vinaya aspect, of course ther is no rule that one needs to confess a misdeed for Laypeople, but actually it is a requisite for further development of right right view and insght. The way one makes this (inwardly or even also outwardly) is up the the person, and I like your comments in regard of this is the upper part of your post.

just quick note here, by requisite I mean it in the fullest way. there is no formal codification, example, not neccesarily advised directly; but but informal and indirectly advised i.e. it can be inferred; could be argued for or against.

It is somehow an invitation to try it by one self to see the benefit from it. But as there is no broad frame of Bhikkhu Sangha and to join a secure way it should be also an invitation to even greate some similar "rituales" amoung laypeople. I am aware that there is some kind of aversion out of Christan traumatas, but even people who know this Christian kind of confession (which is of course wrong directed if it goes to a person or being to beg forgiviness) will maybe remember its benefits (as well as their possible misuses)

it is only wrong if you are doing it because another person can purify/forgive you of the fault, as in the confession.

So there is only one point in your post that makes me reacting here and that is the understandig of "no requisite for confessing for lay-people" which is totaly right if they don't like to make progress but in regard of progress (even better) there is no difference to Bhikkhus and such ways could be also addopted in laymans groups. Of course it needs a lot of care for each other. You might know such things from "Alcoholics Anonymous" or other phsychological groups wher thinks are spoken from the heart. It lightens in any way and in the frame of a Buddhist view, there would be no judgement, but just support from the others.

no requisite and no need are not the same thing.

By body, speech, or mind, whatever improper act I have committed toward the Triple Gem, may this recognition of fault be accepted, as I will be, from now on, restrained toward the Triple Gem

This seems to be very equal to Christian confession and I wonder if such a confession would be really useful. For sure if one really understands the meaning of the Triple Gem, there wil be no danger, but otherwise it is simple the same like Christian do.
So maybe you can provide more information in regard of this statement or usual sentence.

this is part of the evening chanting at Amaravati, and related to one of my responses to your questions later on.
it is not done to someone, but internally as part of a group confession. it is a general rendition of the three seperate confessions to the Buddha; Dhamma; and Sangha, and although I can not remember if I got this from somewhere else or interpreted the three it is done bowed down and spoken by oneself.

I would recommend such a way like this more (of cause as an inner dialog):

“Friend, i have fallen into 'such & such' an offence, i confess this!
(Meditators response) 'Do you Understand?'
(Mendicants reply) 'Yes I do understand!'
(Meditators reply) 'Then be restrained within yourself in the future!”

This is done with another as part of the monastic confession. voicing the fault and admiting it to another is very useful as it put in the open a need for help in an area and the admiral friend can then help. if a confession is purely to oneself then there is no chance of help until the issue is too obvious to go un-noticed.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Dmytro » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:28 am

Hi Hanzze,

Hanzze wrote:Sometimes it seems that there is no such thing as confession in Buddhist practice, but I guess that is a wrong idea. Maybe it is because it is not so much directed to an outwardly judge or watcher, but the watcher in ones heart.


In working with oneself, there's a practice of reflection (paccavekkhana). It is used not only in the development of virtue, - it's also one of jhana masteries, and wisdom development skills.


Ambalatthika-rahulovada sutta:

"What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?"

"For reflection, sir."

"In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Sariputta, a bhikkhu who desires to abide in voidance most of the time should reflect. When going for alms along a certain path, or in a certain region, or returning along a certain path, does interest, or greed, or anger, or delusion, or aversion, arise in my mind on account of forms cognizable by eye consciousness?

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... dhi-e.html

"And how is a monk skilled in reading his own mind? Imagine a young woman -- or man -- fond of adornment, examining the image of her own face in a bright, clean mirror or bowl of clear water: If she saw any dirt or blemish there, she would try to remove it. If she saw no dirt or blemish there, she would be pleased, her resolves fulfilled: 'How fortunate I am! How clean I am!' In the same way, a monk's self-examination is very productive in terms of skillful qualities [if he conducts it in this way]: 'Do I usually remain covetous or not? With thoughts of ill will or not? Overcome by sloth & drowsiness or not? Restless or not? Uncertain or gone beyond uncertainty? Angry or not? With soiled thoughts or unsoiled thoughts? With my body aroused or unaroused? Lazy or with persistence aroused? Unconcentrated or concentrated?'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 0-051.html

Bhikkhus, a certain one considers bodily misconduct has evil results here and now and here after, verbal misconduct has evil results here and now and here after and mental misconduct has evil results here and now and here after. Considering thus he abstains from bodily misconduct and develops bodily good conduct. Abstains from verbal misconduct and develops verbal good conduct and abstains from mental misconduct and develops mental good conduct. Bhikkhus, to this is called the power of considering.

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html

Bhikkhus, it is suitable that the bhikkhu from time to time reflect his own failures, from time to time reflect others failures, Bhikkhus, it is suitable that the bhikkhu from time to time reflect his own success, from time to time reflect others success.

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:38 am

Cittasanto wrote:
By body, speech, or mind, whatever improper act I have committed toward the Triple Gem, may this recognition of fault be accepted, as I will be, from now on, restrained toward the Triple Gem

This seems to be very equal to Christian confession and I wonder if such a confession would be really useful. For sure if one really understands the meaning of the Triple Gem, there wil be no danger, but otherwise it is simple the same like Christian do.
So maybe you can provide more information in regard of this statement or usual sentence.

this is part of the evening chanting at Amaravati, and related to one of my responses to your questions later on.
it is not done to someone, but internally as part of a group confession. it is a general rendition of the three seperate confessions to the Buddha; Dhamma; and Sangha, and although I can not remember if I got this from somewhere else or interpreted the three it is done bowed down and spoken by oneself.

It's part of the standard evening chanting in Thailand and some other places in Asia:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#evening
(BOW DOWN AND SAY):
Kāyena vācāya va cetasā vā,
Dhamme kukammaṃ pakataṃ mayā yaṃ,
Dhammo paṭiggaṇhatu accayantaṃ,
Kālantare saṃvarituṃ va dhamme.

Whatever bad kamma I have done to the Dhamma
by body, by speech, or by mind,
may the Dhamma accept my admission of it,
so that in the future I may show restraint toward the Dhamma.

In our Wat (and in a group I attended in Hong Kong for several months a few years ago) one bows down and kind of mutters it into the floor... So, as Cittasanto says, it's essentially a personal reflection.

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:53 am

Dmytro wrote:...Rahula sutta

Dmytro, thanks for sharing this importand sample (how to do it) above.

mikenz66 wrote:It's part of the standard evening chanting in Thailand and some other places in Asia:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#evening
(BOW DOWN AND SAY):
Kāyena vācāya va cetasā vā,
Dhamme kukammaṃ pakataṃ mayā yaṃ,
Dhammo paṭiggaṇhatu accayantaṃ,
Kālantare saṃvarituṃ va dhamme.

Whatever bad kamma I have done to the Dhamma
by body, by speech, or by mind,
may the Dhamma accept my admission of it,
so that in the future I may show restraint toward the Dhamma.

In our Wat (and in a group I attended in Hong Kong for several months a few years ago) one bows down and kind of mutters it into the floor... So, as Cittasanto says, it's essentially a personal reflection.

Dear Mike,

I thought that is more a traditional way, but I would not regard it as very useful. It care more the "sunday christian" ways, or simply religions rites. "Whatever..." is not useful as it is based on heedlessness if I would not know what I have done wrongly. It would be different if I exactly refect the single points before, but I doubt that such things grow by development of such "general excuses". Not to speak of that most people would direct it to someone(somewhat) that they take as Dhamma.
Nice ritual, but not very effective for the most. That does not mean that is has no effects for even those who do not so understand it. It carries the training of devotion and gratitude (but with all its dangers).

"may the Dhamma accept my admission of it" That is absoluty unnessesary and useless. The dhamma does not care about your requests, you simply need to act according it, so that it will hit not back.

The only thing which is a little similar to this in the suttas is the recollection of the Triple Gems, but that has another use. I don't think that we easily find similar things in the suttas. But I can be wrong as I do not know them well.

My dear Oncle Cittasanto,
thanks also for your aditional shares, I guess some are really helpful for many. It's just that you maybe draw a to hard line between need/can/should/should not in reagard of Layman and Bhikkhu. A layman does not have any rules to observe at all, he can even live like a Bhikkhu without doning anything wrong, if he makes it with good intentions and some amount of wisdom.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:59 am

Hanzze wrote:Nice ritual, but not very effective for the most.

Well, of course, I don't share your opinion since I find the morning and evening chants extremely useful. I do them daily with the monks if I am staying at the Wat on a retreat.

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:23 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Nice ritual, but not very effective for the most.

Well, of course, I don't share your opinion since I find the morning and evening chants extremely useful. I do them daily with the monks if I am staying at the Wat on a retreat.

They are, they are. No offense, but just not in regard of the topic and not as a prerequisite to develope virtue for further attainmaints. If they are used as a kind of Bhavana, just be careful that they to not develope wrong views, as told: "may the Dhamma accept my admission of it" is perfect to develop wrong views and tradtional just a act of devotion for believe-followers. One is able to direct his mind also different to what one actually says but I am not sure if that is useful. I would rather count this as simply ritual with no special use. "If the others feel fine, they should do so."

"Public" confession:
Additional in regard of what Cittasanto said about the benefit to delare it kind of public is also that we give others the possibility to see that there are people who really are honest to them selves. So it is not only for whom how is confessing helpfull but also for the others. If you see or here somebody declaring an act as a violation, you will suddenly think if you also have done so. Often there is a kind of unspoken agreement of violations. So everybody in the group exept this kind of way. If there is one person who suddenly declares his action as wrong, it could change the ways of the whole group. Of couse this is also a problem, as you could also unmask bad behaviours of a group and they would even feel offended. So such thinks should be made only in a group which takes it serious and has a common intention to better their ways.

I put much effort in this topic, because I had seen that also in many Bhikkhu communitis this confessions are not taken very seriously any more and if you would join such a group you would cause nothing but troubles if you start to make your cenfession.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:59 am

Hi Hanzze,
Hanzze wrote:They are, they are. No offense, but just not in regard of the topic and not as a prerequisite to develope virtue for further attainmaints. If they are used as a kind of Bhavana, just be careful that they to not develope wrong views, ...

Of course. One could develop wrong views about lots of things.

With respect to the topic:
While in traditional Buddhist countries the (re)-taking of precepts is a weekly ritual and with its usuallity often less effectfull, it seems to be kind of not present in the "new" countries.

I disagree. It's certainly present for me and I think that it is effective if it is done sincerely.

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:23 am

Dear Mike, I repect your view, and I am always open to learn, so how would you explain that a reciting of "may the Dhamma accept my admission of it" would be useful in regard of re-taking precepts and making a confession in coherence with the eightfold path or even realted suttas not to speak of right view.

I have read lot of funny things in many layman receit books which have less to do with what the Buddha has taught are maintained traditionally.

If helpful than exclusivly on an tantric or transzendente (= Mahāyāna) Buddhismus. "may the Dhamma accept my admission of it" , I guess even the most Tantrica are not that creative to develope such rites with such objects (Dhamma as a place to request for admission...) as it would need much effort to develope something in direction right view out of it.

That it is used and made tratitional does not mean that it is good as well that some wellness or disstress out of it might nessesary be something along the path. Of cause there are many ways to come there.

mikenz66 wrote:
While in traditional Buddhist countries the (re)-taking of precepts is a weekly ritual and with its usuallity often less effectfull, it seems to be kind of not present in the "new" countries.

I disagree. It's certainly present for me and I think that it is effective if it is done sincerely.

Its also very present for me, I see tousands doing that every Sila-day and continue their ways short after in busniess as usual, even while re-taking then, but they feel lighter in some how when they do it again after that ritual. And you know, its somehow quick done today, we are very mobile. Or did you just disagree with the second part of the sentence? That would be a great disagreement and give rise to much mudita. Nevertehnless the first part of the sentence could be even present.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:36 am

Hanzze wrote:I have read lot of funny things in many layman receit books which have less to do with what the Buddha has taught are maintained traditionally.

I'm not talking about "funny layman books", I'm talking about the evening chant, as I explained above. It seems difficult to translate some of those lines into English without it sounding clumsy. The Sangha verse reads better in English:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#evening
Kāyena vācāya va cetasā vā,
Saṅghe kukammaṃ pakataṃ mayā yaṃ,
Saṅgho paṭiggaṇhatu accayantaṃ,
Kālantare saṃvarituṃ va saṅghe.

Whatever bad kamma I have done to the Saṅgha
by body, by speech, or by mind,
may the Saṅgha accept my admission of it,
so that in the future I may show restraint toward the Saṅgha.


:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:45 am

That sounds quite more serious Mike. Thanks for the share. But it is also somehow strange, why only in reagrad to the Sangha, offens confession in regard to the Sangha, confession of just offenses in direction of Sangha? That is simply internal confession to keep the peace of the Sangha, so not in regard of virtue, but more to keep the Sangha united and honored. Good for your Sangha group if you direct your mind to it. But mostly laypeople do not just seek refuge in the Sangha and live exclusivly with the Sangha.

They are like that, when ever I see such traditonal developments, they are manly useless when you know what they are talking about. People mostly receited it in Pali even not knowing the meaning.

I guess it would be much more from use for others, if you tell how you use it and where you direct your mind so that others can addopt good ways. What ever ritual they like to do while mentaly doning wholesome deeds.
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:47 am

Hanzze wrote:Its also very present for me, I see tousands doing that every Sila-day and continue their ways short after in busniess as usual, even while re-taking then, but they feel lighter in some how when they do it again after that ritual. And you know, its somehow quick done today, we are very mobile. Or did you just disagree with the second part of the sentence? That would be a great disagreement and give rise to much mudita. Nevertehnless the first part of the sentence could be even present.

You seem to be making a lot of judgements about the actions of others, what their motives are, and how effective their practice is. I don't think that is particularly helpful.

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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:52 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Its also very present for me, I see tousands doing that every Sila-day and continue their ways short after in busniess as usual, even while re-taking then, but they feel lighter in some how when they do it again after that ritual. And you know, its somehow quick done today, we are very mobile. Or did you just disagree with the second part of the sentence? That would be a great disagreement and give rise to much mudita. Nevertehnless the first part of the sentence could be even present.

You seem to be making a lot of judgements about the actions of others, what their motives are, and how effective their practice is. I don't think that is particularly helpful.

:anjali:
Mike

Mike, actually I like to come away from it and try to focus on what is really useful, and yes I observe and learn, seek and watch the results of actions. I am not a motive augur but not unable to count.

So the porpose was more about sharing possible ways of confession and re-taking of precepts for layman and not how this and that group perfomes there rites.

Therfore my invitation to share your motives rather that this rites.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:01 am

These things are useful because they are a reminder to continue to focus on the Dhamma.

:anjali:
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:08 am

Yes Mike as told before: "They are, they are. No offense, but just not in regard of the topic and not as a prerequisite to develope virtue for further attainmaints. If they are used as a kind of Bhavana, just be careful that they to not develope wrong views" What Dhamma will you like to focus on, it is Adhamma or a wrong directed mind at least.

Therfore its good if you explain it in detail. Sangha, Sangha, what does it mean. "My dear friends, please forgive me if I have done something wrong even if I have not seen it" and what about the others and what about the use in further development.

I am sure your thoughts are different.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:47 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
(BOW DOWN AND SAY):
Kāyena vācāya va cetasā vā,
Dhamme kukammaṃ pakataṃ mayā yaṃ,
Dhammo paṭiggaṇhatu accayantaṃ,
Kālantare saṃvarituṃ va dhamme.

Whatever bad kamma I have done to the Dhamma
by body, by speech, or by mind,
may the Dhamma accept my admission of it,
so that in the future I may show restraint toward the Dhamma.

In our Wat (and in a group I attended in Hong Kong for several months a few years ago) one bows down and kind of mutters it into the floor... So, as Cittasanto says, it's essentially a personal reflection.

:anjali:
Mike

Hi Mike,
Yeah, I know it is common, but I was refering to one example, although I think I got the particular formulae shown above without the individual confessions from an Ajahn lee's book?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:54 pm

Hanzze wrote:My dear Oncle Cittasanto,
thanks also for your aditional shares, I guess some are really helpful for many. It's just that you maybe draw a to hard line between need/can/should/should not in reagard of Layman and Bhikkhu. A layman does not have any rules to observe at all, he can even live like a Bhikkhu without doning anything wrong, if he makes it with good intentions and some amount of wisdom.

I did not know I was yours, and what the hell is a oncle?
You assume i am drawing lines, pointing something out is not drawing a line.
Lay-people do certainly have precepts to uphold. and who said people can not live like anything? you need to understand the difference between what you think and how things are!
have you tried to sincerely do what you are claiming is ineffective from a Buddhist angle.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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