Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

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Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:48 am

If you believe that karma exists you give it power that way. If you stop believing in karma then it stops existing. You create your world to a great extent with your beliefs or should I say expectations.

Thoughts

Thanks
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby plwk » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:57 am

I can just imagine.... clobbering my mother to death and then think, it's okay, nothing will happen...life will go on...
Yeah, life will go on for me ... in the slammer that is... if I was in a country that has life imprisonment or like where I live, death by hanging... unless mitigated by intervening factors...

Does the above work in your world view? :popcorn:

Think not lightly of evil, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled.
Likewise, the fool, gathering it little by little, fills himself with evil.

Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean, nor by entering into mountain clefts,
nowhere in the world is there a place where one may escape from the results of evil deeds.

The Dhammapada
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:13 am

To a certain extent that is. Your mind is a very powerful entity!

Thanks
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:35 am

As i understand it karma is cause and effect. It can be empirically demonstrated and is valid within that frame.


If you jump off a diving board you cant think yourself motionless halfway down.
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:20 am

Isn't it a Buddhist belief that once you reach enlightenment and become a so called Buddha, your karma stops? So woldn't stopping karma mean that you have realized that your karma is a product of your so called mind? How else can you control it?

Thanks
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:21 am

You are in charge of a lot if you believe that you are!

Thanks
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:09 am

Hi Ervin,
Ervin wrote:Isn't it a Buddhist belief that once you reach enlightenment and become a so called Buddha, your karma stops? So woldn't stopping karma mean that you have realized that your karma is a product of your so called mind? How else can you control it?

That's on the right track, I think. How it is usually expressed is that an arahant doesn't do actions (kamma) that have the result (vipaka) of renewed existence.

See, for example:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html

:anjali:
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:45 am

If you have freed yourself and weren't a total slave to karma any more wouldn't it be possible to do evil but not suffer the consequences?

Thanks
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:41 am

According to the Suttas an arahant is incapable of evil actions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:According to the Suttas an arahant is incapable of evil actions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
Mike


Thanks mikenz .

If an arhant can't do evil wouldn't that mean then that he doesn't have Free will any more?

Is an enlightened being in this world incapable of choosing freely their actions?

Thanks
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:13 am

I don't think its a straitjacket kind of thing. An arahant would simply have perfect compassion, and so on, and the idea of harming living beings simply wouldn't arise. Sorry, I'm not being very precise here, just trying to get across my understanding.

:anjali:
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby equilibrium » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:46 am

Ervin wrote:If you believe that karma exists you give it power that way. If you stop believing in karma then it stops existing. You create your world to a great extent with your beliefs or should I say expectations.

What if that believe were not true?.....what are the consequences?.....why believe where you can know?
Isn't it a Buddhist belief that once you reach enlightenment and become a so called Buddha, your karma stops? So woldn't stopping karma mean that you have realized that your karma is a product of your so called mind? How else can you control it?

It takes believe for one to be on the path and when one reach enlightenment, there is no further "I".....this is where you will know.....it is all in the mind.....to control it is to know oneself by following the path.
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Hanzze » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:00 am

Ervin wrote:If you have freed yourself and weren't a total slave to karma any more wouldn't it be possible to do evil but not suffer the consequences?

Thanks

Dear Ervin,

Technical yes, but why would one like to do it? One who is free from suffering has no desire to do anything. No desire no karma, I guess that is the better sequence. Previous Karma is just the forunner for one who is not free from desire. The lesser desire the lesser the producing or additional karma and the more free will.

This might be maybe more relevant: Doing Evil Knowingly and Unknowingly
When we are one time free from any desire (positive or negative), we know for our self.

Inspired by barcsimalsi post below:

from right & wrong
Modern sociologists have identified five basic strategies that people use to avoid accepting blame when they've caused harm, and it's noteworthy that the Pali teaching on moral responsibility serves to undercut all five. The strategies are:

to deny responsibility,
to deny that harm was actually done,
to deny the worth of the victim,
to attack the accuser,
and to claim that they were acting in the service of a higher cause (I guess that is the most dangerous reason but also the most common)

The Pali responses to these strategies are:
(1) We are always responsible for our conscious choices.
(2) We should always put ourselves in the other person's place.
(3) All beings are worthy of respect.
(4) We should regard those who point out our faults as if they were pointing out treasure. (Monks, in fact, are required not to show disrespect to people who criticize them, even if they don't plan to abide by the criticism.)
(5) There are no — repeat, no — higher purposes that excuse breaking the basic precepts of ethical behavior.
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby barcsimalsi » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:01 pm

Ervin wrote:
If an arhant can't do evil wouldn't that mean then that he doesn't have Free will any more?

Is an enlightened being in this world incapable of choosing freely their actions?

Thanks


First you need to acknowledge why people do evil deed. There's few reason:
1) out of greed / for lustful pleasure
2) out of anger
3) out of fear / insecure because of attachment
4) out of delusion

Dependent origination teaches us how to trace the cause that leads to these negative emotion and thoughts. Followed by the way to eliminate the cause which all arahants had succeed.

Arahant still have freewill but the absence of unwholesome thoughts will naturally deny every chance of misconduct.
When a person like arahant completely diminish desire, their mind are satisfied without any cause and condition so the freewill isn't as necessary as for common people.
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Ervin » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:11 pm

Maybe there are people who choose evil and are enlightened at the same time. It seems as if knowledge would be out of reach for evil people. I disagree. There are evil doctors out there. And there are very good people who weren't capable of finishing primary school.
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Aloka » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:30 pm

Ervin wrote:If you believe that karma exists you give it power that way. If you stop believing in karma then it stops existing. You create your world to a great extent with your beliefs or should I say expectations.

Thoughts

Thanks

Hi Ervin

I recommend listening to this talk about kamma given at Amarati Monastery UK by Ajahn Amaro "Who's Pulling the Strings?"

http://www.blubrry.com/amaravatitalks1/1536590/who-is-pulling-the-strings-ajahn-amaro-sunday-talk-2012/

kind regards,

Aloka
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby befriend » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:50 pm

anyone here whos meditated for not that long has seen that when one is practicing samatha meditation sometimes you are temporarily incapable of thinking anything bad. it just cant arise. food for thought.
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby santa100 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:01 pm

Ervin wrote:
"Maybe there are people who choose evil and are enlightened at the same time. It seems as if knowledge would be out of reach for evil people. I disagree. There are evil doctors out there. And there are very good people who weren't capable of finishing primary school"

You might want to check out this thread to see the difference between knowledge/intelligence versus wisdom..

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12176
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby Hanzze » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:29 am

Ervin wrote:Maybe there are people who choose evil and are enlightened at the same time. It seems as if knowledge would be out of reach for evil people. I disagree. There are evil doctors out there. And there are very good people who weren't capable of finishing primary school.

Dear Erwin,

that does not realy count as insight, wisdom or panna. Of coures there are people who do evil even if they are intelectual from much knowledge, there are even "good" people who do at least evil. That is all about defilements, not understanding the reality.
Non of them will act without the idea of "I" and "you" and as long there is the idea of persons and beings rather then actions and its effects, one will at least always do more or less evil till the time when it is understood.

The reason for each desire is the not understanding. There is no good or bad desire, good or bad (in our frame of normal thinking) is at least just an agreement. Desire is desire and alsways the cause of suffering. Not causing kamma means being free of deire because the is no more wrong view. To come to this we need some noble desire, to get free of desire, to ubstain from what is unskillfull (bad) and to develope skillfull (good) ways and in this way get free from our defilements (wrong view) step by step.

Actually there is much danger in gaining Buddhist knowledge and techniques without having a general tendency to virtue. You might know such things like kamikaze as sample, also "crazy wisdom" (which is found often amoung Zen, or Tibetan traditions) falls into this category.

When knowledge is mixed with desire it is called "maya"

In some cases, tanha lobha is called maya. Therefore, the nature of maya will be explained herein. Maya is like a magician, a conjurer. Just as the magician picks up a stone and makes the audience believe it to be gold nugget; just so maya does conceal one's faults. It means one who exercises maya pretends to be flawless though he is not.


and also "Satheyya" fits well to your thoughts, but that has nothing to do with wisdom, insight or enligthenment.

Along with maya, satheyya should also be understood. When one pretends to have certain qualities and make other think highly of him, such kind of lobha is called satheyya. Maya conceals one's faults and pretends to be faultless, whereas satheyya pretends to have non-existence qualities. Both of them are trickeries or deceptions.


You will find some samples for it in the links. Take them with responsibility and put virtue always higher, you can nothing but hurt your self at least and it would hurt if one denies virtue, no way to run away.

There is for example a Dhammapada story which might show also the danger for a fool who gains knowledge rather than to trust his own goodness:

The Story of Satthikutapeta

While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (72) of this book with reference to a peta-ghost named Satthikutapeta.

The Chief Disciple Maha Moggallana saw this enormous peta-ghost while going on an alms-round with Thera Lakkhana. In this connection, the Buddha explained that Satthikutapeta, in one of his previous existences, was very skilful in throwing stones at things. One day, he asked permissions from his teacher to try out his skill. His teacher told him not to hit a cow, or a human being as he would have to pay compensation to the owner or to the relative, but to find a target which was ownerless or guardianless.

On seeing the paccekabuddha, the idiots lacking in intelligence, thought the paccekabuddha, having no relative or guardian, would be an ideal target. So he threw a stone at the paccekabuddha who was on an alms-round. The stone entered from one ear and came out of the other. The paccekabuddha expired when he reached the monastery. The stone-thrower was killed by the disciples of the paccekabuddha and he was reborn in Avici Niraya. Afterwards, he was reborn as a peta-ghost and had since been serving the remaining term of the evil consequences (kamma) of his evil deed. As a peta-ghost his enormous head was being continuously hit with red-hot hammers.

In conclusion, the Buddha said, "To a fool, his skill or knowledge is of no use; it can only harm him."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 72: The skill of a fool can only harm him; it destroys his merit and his wisdom (lit., it severs his head).


Not to much posts training: 3. Post/ 4.10. 9:27 am (accordiny messurement 7 posts the last 24h) current value: 8. post
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Your beliefs and or knowlege creates karma

Postby barcsimalsi » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:59 am

Ervin wrote:Maybe there are people who choose evil and are enlightened at the same time. It seems as if knowledge would be out of reach for evil people. I disagree. There are evil doctors out there. And there are very good people who weren't capable of finishing primary school.


Knowledge is the essence of wisdom but why there are bad/rotten lawyers, presidents, professors, doctors, scientists...?
It is because the knowledge they have did not support the right view. What they have is just education for specific profession. However there are many who knew well what is bad but still can't help from doing bad.

Because everyone is born with different characters, some are patience, some greedy, some stubborn, some loving, some just like to see people suffer..., only understanding isn't enough to restraint human from doing bad things. That's why Buddhism furnish the noble 8 foldpath. 1)right view/understanding 2)right thoughts 3)right speech 4)right action 5)right livelihood 6)right effort 7)right mindfulness 8)right concentration

In some religion, people blame individual wrong choice for doing evil and don't really bother to trace what exactly contribute us to make wrong choice. Some will repent and seek forgiveness from God but the evil in them keep returning...

To understand Buddhism, it is best to first acknowledge its fundamental teaching which is the 4 noble truth:
1. to understand life is cruel and suffering
2. to trace the cause that leads to evil deed and suffering
3. to understand the cause must be eliminate
4. to practice the way to eliminate the cause
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